Christian Parents - Teenager Question - Warning - Controversial

mom2my2cuties wrote: I don't mean any disrespect to any parents who aren't christian or have opposing beliefs to this matter - but I would like for Christian Parents mainly to respond to this because of the situation.

I do some work with a group of teens here - And we got into a discussion last night about "How far is too far before marriage? Which of course, stopped me in my tracks...My own kids are only 6 & 2...I haven't hit this question with them yet.

Well I remember my parents having this "talk" with me - and basically what dad told me which was - "If you would not only be uncomfortable doing it in front of me or mom or if God were standing in the room, or would be concerned that if the rapture took place right then and you would be left behind - you shouldn't be doing it."

And nothing in the bible is more clear I don't think than No Sex Outside of Marriage...But I know human nature is to push the envelope as far as you can. So that got me to thinking - How far really is to far. With my dad's explination...I didn't even french kiss until I was married.

So I would like to know what some other Christian parents think, and what you have told your own children in this light.

kit_kats_mom replied: I am not Christian but I will say that kids will be kids. From my experience growing up, I don't really think it matters. There was an equal amount of hanky panky going on at the church sponsered events (young life church group, camps etc which I attended with a friend) as was happening at the regular gatherings of my non-church going friends. There were kids in each group that had good values and those who had not so good values. ETA, I will teach my girls the "don't do it if you'd be ashamed if I saw you doing it or if it makes you feel bad inside" thing. Hopefully I'll have instilled enough self pride for them to not go too far.

redchief replied: That's not an easy question. It's not a precise one either. There are kind of two thought tracks that could be used to answer the question. Since religion was mentioned straight off I'm going to assume you're talking theologically. According to the Catholic Church it is a sin to have sex before marriage.

CantWait replied: I am catholic, although not much of a practicing one. I have heard the answer to this question as simple as....how much do you want to save for "the one". There is nothing in the bible that says kissing is to far, or anything else for that matter.

mom2my2cuties replied: Well the kids are asking - "In God's view - How far is too far?" And I know the bible says to abstain from even a hint of sexual immorality...And I explained that to them last night - but it really got me to wondering...I have no idea how to really answer thier question - but how I will even tell my own kids.

cameragirl21 replied: Ok, here's my question to you, and again I don't mean to stir up controversy. But here's the thing, I'm not a Christian parent, in fact, I'm Jewish, and while I'm very spiritual and definitely very Jewish, I'm a rather liberal Jew and not extremely observant.
BUT
For very religious Jews, this is an issue also and they typically are married off fairly young because they too are not allowed to have premarital sex BUT in Judaism oral sex for example is not considered sex, only the act that leads to pregnancy is considered sex.
I personally don't believe anyone goes to hell ever for any reason, in fact, I don't believe such a place exists but I'm fully aware that this is just my opinion and that it's really not shared by most people.
What I'm wondering is--do you really believe that if you have sex before marriage that you'll go to hell?
This is really the root of it, I think, when you approach something like this--do you believe that if your kids do this then they will go to hell and do you therefore believe that their eternity depends upon whether or not you can convince them of this?
BTW, if you do believe this, I will do absolutely nothing to try to convince you otherwise, I'm just trying to determine what your beliefs are at the core in order to help you figure out how you would go about this.
Can you tell I have an advanced degree in psychology, lol....

mom2my2cuties replied: I think the only way a person goes to hell is for commiting the unpardonable sin (Blasphemy of the holy spirit) or not recieving Christ as thier savior.

I believe that sex oustide of marriage in any form is wrong and a sin - however you can be forgiven for it.

I guess I should give a quick background - I got to Assembly of God Church (Similar to the Pentecostal churches for those who don't know) and while I don't know much about the religion in and of itself (which is sad since I grew up in it) I believe the bible is the soverign word of god and irrefutable.

Now that is out of the way - Sorry if I am not making myself clear. This just came up in disscussion last night. And honestly, it takes a lot to floor me - because usually I am prepared for everything...But this one got me.

I told them what my parents told me - but then I explained that I do think my dad was a little bit too much "hell fire and brimstone" sometimes as well.

So - parents of teens (or those getting close) how do you explain this one to your kids?

redchief replied:
Jennifer, you said you don't want to stir controversy, but then you went on to do just that. If you don't believe in the existence of hell, why would you ask such a question except to stir a little controversy. I have no problem with a little controversy, handled in an adult manner, but your question reveals one of two things. Either you DO believe in hell, to whatever extent that may be, and are looking for someone to move you in one direction or another, OR you just want to see what will happen if you throw this question out there.

Jamison'smama replied: Interesting questions Ed. I believe since this was posted under the topic Christian Parents, the answer would be yes---a Christian believes there is a heaven and hell--now, the definitions may differ but the Christan faith is Bible based so asking a Christian in they believe in Hell is probably not necessary.

I agree with Cary. It is a hard question to answer and I would throw it back on them. If you know them well and the parents are okay with the discussion I would ask them to define "too far". Since the Bible doesn't state the specifics it would be a good opportunity to ask them where they believe the line should be drawn. Should it be the same for everybody? Why or why not. I think finding out from them would be very interesting and I would like to hear their answers.

luvbug00 replied: I was raised catholic. My dad fermily believes that anything such as oral would be too far. he was understanding about kissing and a little tuchy stuff. Not approving or condoning but understanding.

mom2my2cuties replied: I do think throwing it back at them is a good idea. I was so floored that I barely had time to gather my thoughts on it.

This was a spin off from the question from last week "Is it ok to spend the night with my boyfriend if we don't have sex?" So I just didn't know what to say.

A&A'smommy replied: Well from experience I will tell you that I was taught that sex before marriage is a sin in all churches. Now that doesn't mean that those people don't have sex before they are married I'm a prime example of that. But also at that point i quite going to church because there was some stuff that happened that i didn't agree with so I just left and quite going to church and then i started having sex. Not that I agree with what I did but I wouldn't do things differently, anyway I'm going to teach my daughter abstinence but if I think she might be having sex and I know I don't want her to get pregnant then I will take her to get bc .. but anyway most kids i knew back then even though some of them were having sex anyway were taught abstinence, but a lot of them didn't.

redchief replied: What I tell my CCD 8th Graders is this, in the end you each have to make your peace with God and with yourselves and the people you love. The bible and catechism states that premarital sex is a sin. God also gave us the ability to review our sins and ask for absolution. We are all sinners, and Jesus gave us the sacrament of Penance to atone for that undeniable fact.

Now I know that many of the protestant faiths don't believe in Penance and absolution. I wrote what I wrote because this is Catholic dogma and that is how I approach the question of sin and sexuality.

CantWait replied:
Tish? is it. Sorry hon I forgot your name.

I just had a concern as to why you're leading a youth group if you yourself don't know much about the religion.

These youth are coming to you for answers, and if you don't know about the religion, which is really what you should be basing these answers then how are they going to get an honest response based on the bible and their religion?

Maddie&EthansMom replied: My mother always told me (and I was raised in a christian home) to steer clear of actions you fear may take you too far. For instance, being alone with a boy late at night, kissing in a car or in a home where no adult is around. We all know kissing can lead to other things. Especially in frisky teens. I'm trying to think back from when I was a dating teen and when I was most tempted to take things a little far.

The bible does talk about remaining pure. There are several reasons why. I think anything you do that would compromise that or whatever you have a personal conviction over then you've taken it too far.

This is a hard one, isn't it? You can get into so many things when discussing this topic. At least from a christian standpoint.

mom2my2cuties replied: It's not about religion - it is about what does the bible say about this - it's a What does the bible say about XYZ - When I said I don't know much about the religion I meant I have never read the bylaws and that sort of thing. What I was trying to say, is that it is similar to the pentecostal religion in beliefs however, other than the dress code, I am really not sure where it differs.

I do know that the Assembly of God believes that the bible is the word of God and therefore irrefutable. So that is what I base my answers to them on.

And I am doing it because I was asked to.

CantWait replied:

I don't simply think being asked to do something is reason for doing it if you can't give an honest answer based on what you know, or in the case of the bible, based on what God teaches us.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Mom2my2cuties, we seem to think in a similar manner when it comes to our religious faith from what I have been reading in your posts. As to whoever asked the question "do you believe having sex before marriage will put you in hell?". No, that's why Jesus came and died for our sins, period. Does it make it OK though? No, the Bible is clear on that. But we shouldn't use the term "well, I'll be forgiven" to give us excuses to go and make sin. We will still be judged by God himself when we die.

As to how to talk to your youth group kids about it...it's kind of a fine line. It's really the parents job to lead them in the right direction, however, the way you explained it sounds like they are at risk youths. Is that correct? Perhaps they don't have the appropriate role models at home? I also know sometimes kids just feel more comfortable talking to someone other than their parents about this stuff. Many times we become a role model for them, and should be.

I think when we are talking about raising our children (or youth group children, in this scenerio) up right on this topic (as Christian parents), it is important to teach our children that what the Bible says is truth, can not be altered, and is the main source of our existence. However, we always have to keep in mind that just like any adult, children will stray as well and make their own choices. I think even "touching in those places" is a sin before marriage, in my opinion. Says so in the Bible (don't ask me to quote it, I can't remember, but it's there, you'll have to take my word on it). Do I think kissing is sin? I'm not really sure to be honest. The bible isn't always "blunt" about things, which is why there are so many interpretations in denominations. I would like to think not. Don't we kiss our moms and dads?

I guess it really depends on how a person respects their bodies. Some people wont even kiss before marriage. More power to them. I think the best thing you can do is teach them about respecting their own body as a temple of God. If they respect their bodies and God's word, then they will do everything in their power to sustain and wait. If it's something that they feel in their gut is wrong, then they shouldn't be doing it. Just an FYI, the bible doesn't say "sexual intercourse" specifically, it simply says fornicators and sex as a whole. So, sex isn't just about the "act" of intercourse.

I wish you the best of luck with your youth kids. My hubby is a youth leader at our church. He will admit he doesn't know the Bible up and down, but he is there to be a role model more than anything else, not just a teacher. That is what kids need most many times. It shouldn't matter how well you know the denomination, because all denominations have the same love of Christ and use the Bible as our map through life. As long as you can be a good role model for them, that is all that matters. Good luck!

C&K*s Mommie replied: I often agree with Aimee, and this is no exception.

But to answer the original question That really is a loaded question, because you cna take it from the standpoint of someone who is easily tempted and thus will give in. So for that person simple kissing may be too far. From the standpoint of someone who is not easily swayed and tempted, too far could mean kissing and touching in places that are exposed to the public (hips, outer legs, shoulders, etc) and then the person can call it quits when things get heated.

IMO, for a basic answer- I think it is anything that you would want preserved for the marriage bed. Including kissing, touching, oral, .

~~
What will we teach our children? All humor put aside, about not dating until they are 40. I would/will do my best to teach them not to allow themselves to be in uncomprimising positions (alone in a car with a boy, at his house, etc) where temptation can win out, and the best decisions (the use of protection, unclear heads) are not utilized all the time. A saint I am not, but I did not learn my lesson until marriage to stay out of tight situations where the physical overrules the mental voice.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Song of Songs.

'nuff said!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Again, from a Christian standpoint, when we are saved all the desires of sin are gone. We should delight in serving God and being more like him, all while becoming closer to him and building our relationship with him. If a teen is truly saved, they would do everything in their power to avoid such situations (since it is, after all one of the 10 commandments). So, maybe we need to work on getting the teens saved and explaining more in depth what salvation means and what conviction is and feels like.

ashtonsmama replied:
Amen to that.

mom2my2cuties replied:

First and foremost - my qualifications to teach this class are irrelevant to the post and the question I asked. However, what I meant by not knowing the "religion" parts of things. I know exactly how our church interprets and believes the bible. That has never been a question. What I don't know and honestly don't care about are the politics of our religion - which is what I was refering to when I said I didn't know all the background in reference to the difference between the A/G & the Pentecostals.

These are kids who are at risk Jeanie. They are great kids, just come from pretty rough backgrounds. And why the pastor felt I was the person to lead this group is beyond me, but I do believe God was guiding him in this decision. And I do know this is my place right now. These kids have taught this life long christian what it is like to not have everything spelled out clearly for you in life.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I'll tell you something our pastor often refers to. "God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called".

mom2my2cuties replied: Thanks Jeanie - that does make me feel a lot better.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You're welcome! I think that statement says a lot. I rewrote it a little, the first way I said it was wrong, but the meaning is the same.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

I was acually thinking the exact same thing....

If you are unsure as to your belief system and if it matches with the religion you are 'teaching' maybe you should be seeking instruction instead of giving it....I am sure you desire to tell them what is right but that is a tall order for someone with no teenage children especially in this day and age.

As for the sex before marriage question. The best advice I ever heard on the matter was Don't do anything you would not want someone doing to your future mate...just in case the one you are doing it with does not turn out to be him/her....somehow that always stuck in my mind

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I still think this is important to remember.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Do you have any children at all? The reason I ask is because I have not ever read where you talk about one...No disrespect intended to you and your degree, but as my grandmother always says "It is difficult to make the call until you walk a mile in those mocasins!"

CantWait replied:
You're really taking it just a little to personal. Sorry you feel as if I've attacted you, it's not what I meant. I guess I just see it differently then yourself.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: ITA with you on the statement you made, Jeanie. We go where we see God working...we are called...we are servants. There's learning in this for all of us. I knew what you (Tish) meant when you said that you didn't know how to approach this. How often are we faced with situations where we don't have all the answers? Quite often. I have to refer back to my bible a lot. That's when I simply say "Let me pray about that and get back to you." There's nothing wrong with saving an answer for a time when you feel more adequate answering it. We certainly don't want to say the wrong things. I think what you are doing is great. I pray you are a role model and a great influence on these kids. I don't have a teenager, but I was one not too long ago. Not having one doesn't mean I shouldn't work with them where my church has a need or certainly if I've been called to do so.

More people should step up, IMO. But they are afraid of not having all the answers and not going where God calls them...or going where God is working. Good for you for doing it despite all that.

mom2my2cuties replied: Ok - I am dropping the qualifications part because I have typed up about 10 different responses but in order to keep the peace, I am going to let it go and would greatly appreciate it if everyone else would as well. You guys can doubt my qualifications for teaching this class all you want. That is peachy perfect with me. But from now on I would appreciate it if you would take it to God instead of me. He is the one who placed it on Pastors heart to ask me to do this and it is his call...Not mine.

Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate the answers...I think this one is going to be one of those I have get in my prayer closet and pray about for a while before I can answer these kids with something that isn't making them feel like they are going to hell for sinning, but that they don't get a get out of jail free card just because they can ask forgiveness for said sin.

cameragirl21 replied: Ed, I do not believe in hell and have no fear of it, when I'm working on something challenging, particularly for charity where the lives of others are on the line, I've been known to say something to the effect, "i will make this work even if i have to sell my soul to the devil to do it." And I think nothing of saying that.
And I wasn't trying to stir controversy, simply trying to figure out what Tish's fear was--is it that she doesn't want her kids having sex before marriage because well, no parent really does or is it because she is truly afraid they will go to hell for doing so.
Not being comfortable with your kids having sex and thinking they're going to be damned for doing it are two different things and have to be approached two different ways, kwim?

kit_kats_mom replied:
Tish, first, if this comes off as mean or offensive, please just ignore it. I am not very well schooled in the religions so I'm no pro. I did want to say that my DH was raised in the AG. He went to an AG school and knew nothing but the church way of life for years. He finally transferred to a public school in the 10th grade and felt, in his words, like an alien. After meeting his parents and going to their church, I can see how he would feel that way.

I was happy to hear you say that you didn't want the kids to feel like they were going to hell for sinning. My DH did not have that. He clearly remembers being a terrified 6 year old because he was convinced he was going to hell based on the fact that he didn't hear gods voice (in a literal 6 year old sense) when he prayed, he didn't see god when he closed his eyes etc. He was taught about a mean god and it has really turned him against the church. Not the teachings, but the way that he was taught. Does that make sense? Anyway, he was really scarred and it's becoming an issue now with our decision weather or not to take the girls to sunday school. We are leaning that way but we must find a church that preaches a nice, loving and understanding god.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there for you.

mom2my2cuties replied:

I was brought up that way by my parents. As I said in my inital post, I was told that if was something I wouldn't do if God were standing in the room with me (I would be afraid to breathe if God were in the room with me though) or wouldn't want to be doing when the rapture took place it was probably something I shouldn't be doing anyway. And I had to go through all my high school years in public school feeling the same way as your husband so I completely understand.

Which is a good approach, and i am glad my dad taught me that...Because I think it when I consider doing something wrong. Say when I really consider flipping off that really bad driver on I-65 that I seem to encounter at least twice a day.

But I also don't want my kids fearing that going to the movies will send them to hell. Which I did think until I was in my late teens. A lot of churches and families draw a hard line, which I think is good, because I do believe there are too many grey areas in the church these days.

You have to be very careful how you draw that line though I believe with kids. You can't just say "You are going to hell for this." They have to understand that there are bounderies that can not be crossed and things that aren't right for them to do - yes...But I do think you have to approach in an appropriate way for them.

The A/G church has changed a lot over the years. I acutally left the A/G church in '98. After my dad died, and started attending a non denominational church. And anymore, unless it is an "old school" A/G church, you really can't tell the difference in the non denominational churches and the A/G churches.

Also, someone mentioned the things that go on in youth groups - I am with you on that. I agree that Christian kids CAN be as bad as non Christian kids.

I am not offended by anyone's post. And am not upset at anyone Sorry if it seems that way. I don't get too upset - usually - this week has been an exception to that due to stress and I don't hold grudges. Just wanted you guys to know that....And now I am just rambling I think


Tish

cameragirl21 replied: ok, this i have to ask--what's wrong with going to the movies? how does that relate to religion in any way?
i remember when i was about 12ish i asked a girl in my synchronized swimming troop if she wanted to go to the movies and she said that she's not allowed to go to movies. it turns out that she went to a baptist school and the school rule was that no students there are allowed to go to movies?
i don't understand how movies tie in with religion at all.
and in all fairness, when i was growing up, there were plenty of things that i wouldn't do in front of my parents but did do when they weren't watching and not all of them were sexual.
i think it's hard to imagine yourself being watched by your parents in everything you do, or any authority figure for that matter.
and as for God, well, if He were in the room with me, i'd drop everything to ask Him a few questions that i'm working on finding answers to, like why that woman from the als calendar pic i showed you all yesterday is dying even though she never did anything bad to anyone and why she is forced to orphan her child....
i just don't understand that at all....
and btw, this is not to say that i blame God or hold anything against Him, i would just like to understand that's all.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Cary, you said you are not a christian. I'm just curious if you were raised in church or were ever exposed to it. I was raised A/G and didn't have the same experiences as Woody. We've talked about this before...I remember although it's been awhile. Of course my parents were different, too. It wasn't until my teen years that I knew about hearing God's voice Maddie is 6 and she doesn't know about hell. She will one day, but I don't want her to be scared of the devil. I want her to know that if she is saved, she is a child of God..that is a gift that cannot be taken away from her. Just as she is my child forever, she will also be His.

God is loving and understanding. As are most christians. I pray that you are lead the right way and if you have any questions about a church you've visited, feel free to PM or e-mail me. There's lots of misinformation out there.

mom2my2cuties replied:

I think it was more a "garbage in - garbage out" situation. But the way it was taught to me, i thought there was something wrong with me and I didn't see a movie in a theater until 99

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Aimee~We feel the same way about Taylor's teaching-which unfortunately is one big reason why we are not in church right now...I was raised in a non-denominational church that gave credit to the big D for everything from a runny nose to world famine....It always made me wonder why when he was sooooo powerful I was better off serving God.... That I am sure just caused some raised eyebrows What I mean is-there is sickness and hate in the world and I know the devil is real BUT I also know that Tay has plenty of time to be told that without it being the focus of her childhood. It was a scary thing for some of the kids I babysat for when they were getting a slight cold-the devil was after them...please don't think I am saying all churches are like this I am speaking as to our personal preferance for our child! Anyway I am Aimee We are once again on the same page

kit_kats_mom replied:
I'll pm you Aimee.

cameragirl21 replied: Tish,
I didn't say I blame God, nor do I think he gives us diseases. I simply do not understand why there are countless people in the middle east who are eager to blow themselves up and die just to kill us and they are free of disease and live to kill another day and yet there are people here who want nothing more than to live and they are dying.
I don't get it.
And I realize that I just brought yet another controversial topic into this, welcome to the world of Jennifer....

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Actually, that's pretty easy to explain. Adam and Eve were given a choice..to eat the apple (disobey God) and live with hell and damnation or they could obey God and live a peaceful, wonderful existence here on earth. They chose to disobey God. What that means for us is long suffering, disease, disaster on earth. But, by God's grace we can be saved. We still have the choice to be saved (b/c Jesus died for our sins on the cross) It means we will have eternal life and He is preparing a place for us in Heaven. Part of His ultimate plan is to give us life (after death). Everyone dies and it's quite a shame that we can't choose how we die or how our loved ones die or at what age they die. It's hard to accept. I know it is. I've been there many times. We hurt, God hurts with us, but He wants us to come to Him so we will live forever in His name. It was never His wish for us to live this way so He gives us a second chance.


You are Jewish...I don't think these are your beliefs at all, but this is what the Bible teaches. The woman you mentioned, is she a believer?

mom2my2cuties replied:

Part of it I think is what we (The west) put in our body. I think a lot of disease comes from things like that. And as far as those willing to die blowing us up - Well...They will get thiers and there wont be any virgins waiting on them I don't think

Also I wanted to add so you can understand why I don't think God gives us disease or chooses not to heal us -When I was growing up and lived in Texas, Dad got home from work one day, collapsed walking up the steps of the front porch. We called an Ambulence, they took him to Collin County General in McKinney, who discovered he had an anerysm on his brain and didn't expect him to make it long. And told my mom to expect him to be dead by the time they reached Parkland Memorial in Dallas where he was transfered to. Well, needless to say, enroute to Parkland, they anerysm sealed itself off. - Miracle some say, Good Blood others say. Let me tell you, it was a miracle. Because my father had a clotting disorder.

We found out shortly after his arrival to Parkland that my father suffered from not 1 but 3 brain tumors. One the size of a smaller grapefruit larger orange. And 2 others about the size of a key lime. These were the most deadly kinds of tumors. They removed all of the tumors but couldn't find where they stemmed from. (They were Malignant) and had to give my dad a clean bill of health.

My dad's doctors were amazed when he went in for his 5 year check up because the didn't expect him to still be alive. When this happened - only 1% of those who had that kind of brain tumor lived passed 3 years. So we thank God we got 10 years before it was time for Dad to go home. When my dad got rediagnosed it was a severe blow to our family and to my beliefs personally. But after praying and trying chemo and stuff again - my dad said enough! He decided he didn't want God to heal him. He didn't want any more treatments, he just wanted to die. He felt it was his time, and he was ready. And as hard as this was on my family, we understood he was tired. His body was tired and he simply needed to go.

The biggest miracle I got out of this - My dad was HAPPY to go...He passed away with a smile on his face.

ETA - the above and


Abbie - I know not all churches are like that, but there are a lot that are. I went through a phase as you did with wondering how the devil could be so powerful and then claim God is all powerful too. It is sad though that some churches only preach the "hell fire, brimstone and damnation" and rarely speak of the amazing goodness of God.

Cary - I hope you find a church that you love. I do believe that when you find the right one, you know will know it.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Yeah, that's all a part of the plan, too. It's all in Revelations. The dragon rising in the East. SCARY STUFF!!!

cameragirl21 replied: I agree, Tish, that a lot of it is what we put in our bodies but als is everywhere, not just here in the west for starters and also, i often hear of very young children, some even babies getting cancer and i can't imagine they had enough time on this planet to put anything into their bodies to lead to something like that.
at the risk of pissing everyone here off, well, before i even ask this, i want to say that pissing everyone or anyone here off isn't my intention, but just a simple question--do any of you believe that Jesus tried to save himself? I realize you believe that he was sent here to die but as the story goes, he didn't exactly go willingly, although none of us knows for sure because we weren't there and to be fair, the gospels ARE contradictory on many topics.
For example, John pretty much blames Jews for Jesus' death, but Mark says the opposite, if i'm not mistaken, i'm hardly the expert on this stuff.
but here's the thing, someone said something to me that was very interesting. Jen, the woman with als is very religious and her sister, who is a missionary said that Jesus will save her.
a friend of mine's response to this was (and she didn't say this to Jen or in front of her, nor has she ever met Jen), "Jesus couldn't save himself, so how can he save her?"
i wonder though, did Jesus try to save himself, any thoughts?
and really, if any of you are upset by this i'm sorry and that was really not my intention, nor is it ever my intention to upset anyone, even though past experiences make me a little worried to post anything that could cause a rise in anyone, but then what is the point of learning if you can't ask questions...?

mom2my2cuties replied: He went willingly - He knew it was the will of the father....I believe he could have called a whole host of angels to save him if he wanted to.

He struggled with the decision. He was human. Not many of us volunteer to die a greusome and horrific death.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Actually Jennifer the Bible states he could have called a legion of Angels to rescue Him but he made the choice to die on the cross.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: We all have cancer cells. None of us are exempt from anything in this world. No matter our age or our size or whether or not we are Christians. That's what I was saying in my last post. It's all a part of what was chosen for us. It's a part of being a sinner and living in the world we live in.

I don't believe Jesus was sent here to die. (or maybe I should say He wasn't sent for that reason alone b/c the Bible does say He was sent here to die for our sins) I believe He was born as the Son of God to bring people to God. He did a lot of things here on earth. He walked this very soil to preach God's word to people. He was condemned and died on the cross for our sins so we would have eternal life and He rose again (thus Easter was born). Our 'job' as christians is to bring people to God, to spread His word, to know Him, love Him and have a relationship with Him. It's not a lot to ask really, for the gift He gave us.

Anyway, yes, he did die on the cross and perhaps God did know that He was going to sacrifice His only son before he was born since God is omnipotent, but I believe He was sent here for FAR MORE than just to hang on that cross and be ridiculed.

Death is a lot easier to understand when you know God and know His plan. When you experience His love and grace. When you have faith that you will see that loved one again some day. It softens the blow if you kwim. You know they are in a better place, where there are no tears, pain and suffering. That gives me peace and understanding.

cameragirl21 replied: ok, Aimee, but here's the thing--since i'm a bit superstitious, i will not use one of your children as an example but let's imagine you had a third child, let's call her Mandy.
Let's say that Mandy, at the age of 3 was diagnosed with cancer and the doc told you she was going to die and that there was nothing that could be done.
Would you settle for your explanation that God has a higher plan for Mandy and that she was meant to live for only a short time and that she will now go to a better place or would you agonize over the fact that your child is dying and you are powerless to save her?
You see, it's a difficult question....

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Yes, I would accept God's plan, but I would also grieve. I would most definitely feel powerless, but I know my God is powerful enough to take all my hurt away. Because He loves me enough to hurt for me. He did it on the cross, He does it every single day. Jeremiah 29:11 reads "For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" He goes on to say that we will call upon Him in prayer and He will listen to us. When we seek Him with all of our hearts we will find Him.

Like I said, I'm no stranger to loss. And I know and have felt the comfort and peace of my God. I honestly don't know how non believers get thru such things. But never once have I blamed God for taking my loved one from me. I know their work on earth was done and He needed them in Heaven more than we needed them here.

eta: I said this before in a previous post, but I wanted to say it again. I am God's child. My children are also children of God. Just like any mother would hurt for their child, so God hurts for us (his children)

Do you have children? You've never mentioned them and I'm just curious.

Jamison'smama replied: Why is it either/or? Of course one would agonize and seek treatment and try like heck to do whatever possible. I for one do not believe that children are sick because it is God's plan however when a child of God dies, he wraps his arms around them and brings them home with him, in that, one can find peace, not without grief and sadness--we are only human.

cameragirl21 replied: But Brenda, if one believes that God has a plan for everything and everything is God's will then isn't grieving and agonizing by definition, disagreeing with or questioning God's plan?
this is my point, we are only human and no matter how we want to look at it or what we choose to believe in order to make us feel better, the fact is that the world is not a fair place and there is no real explanation for why things happen the way they do and to they people they happen to.
And I feel people try to find a way to explain or justify this but my question remains--is there really an explanation or justification that we can accept once it is right in our faces?
it's easy to say it about someone else, that it's just God's plan but i wonder if we would still feel this way if it were happening to us, it changes everything, no?

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I believe you are earnest in your asking these questions and I would love to continue answering any questions you have. I will always try to find scripture to back up my beliefs. God has never steered me wrong. He is truly amazing and my prayer is that you one day experience the love He has for you.

I think a lot of people are searching for the peace, love and understanding that only God can give. They are just so reluctant to let Him into their lives. It's a personal committment, but if you are seeking to know more about Him, I would urge you to read the Bible for yourself. Not just take someone else's word for what it says. When you accept Him into your heart it is then that you truly begin to see and feel Him. It's possible. People say they can't see God or touch Him. I can. Because He is in me. I speak with Him, He speaks with me. This is something that can only be done thru a relationship with Him.

I'll step down from the pullpit now. But I am here to answer questions if you have them. I'm not trying to change your mind, btw.

And I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

He never promised us a fair world to live in. He told us there would be trials and tribulations. But He did promise us heaven if we accepted Him into our hearts.

And no, it doesn't change everything if it were to happen to me. It has happened. I have experienced loss. Most of us have. Death is a part of life. We are all going to die someday.

Did you see my post before Brenda's on the second page?

cameragirl21 replied: Aimee, I do believe in God and I did go to Sunday School, I just happen to be Jewish; I am not a Christian like you, so no, I don't believe in Jesus as the son of God or the messiah but that doesn't mean I don't believe in God.
I don't need scripture, that is not what I am asking of you, what I'm asking is, do you really believe if God forbid something like what I described were happening to you you'd just be able to accept it as the will of God and not be angry that it is happening to you?
I understand where you're coming from and as a Christian I'm sure you were taught to respond to everything with scripture but no scripture can explain to me why Jen is dying of als or let's get a little closer to home here--why Spencer had to have a bone marrow transplant and why Kirsten can't sleep at night because she can't make it ok for her child.
Yeah, I'm angry, not with God but because I don't understand and no scripture will explain it to me. I've spent countless hours with people who are dying and no one can save them and no scripture can change that.

Jamison'smama replied: I do not belive that everything that happens is "God's plan". God has a plan for us, but what we do is our choice. As we may have a plan for our children, they also have free will. Also, believing in God does not mean that we do not have human emotions. Jesus (when human) wept following the death of a close friend --so no, I do not believe that having emotions is questioning anything. Even so, I feel that there is nothing wrong with questioning. We certainly won't understand why thing happen like they do and the natural response is to ask why? Just as our children as why when any decision is made that they don't understand. That's where faith comes into play.

ETA, I certainly can't answer the question as to why these horrible things happen. Aimee addressed this in a previous post. It is horrible and sad. I too have experienced loss.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Yes, I would be devastated. Of course I would be. But that doesn't mean that I don't trust in Him. I trust that He knows the plans for my life. And I accept that.

My children are not my own. They are God's children. He gave them to me for a short time. It's my job to raise them and to teach them about the Lord. I have to accept that He has a will for each of them.

And yes, I back everything up by scripture. I was taught to do this b/c God's word never changes. He never changes. He will always be the same. His word is the rock I stand on. The Bible has an answer to everything. That's why I was giving scriptures. There is an answer. I don't know what exactly you are looking for. I've admitted that yes, I would be hurt if my children died. No, I would not question God's will. I hurt and have cried countless times for Kirsten and Spencer. I've prayed for God's will to be done in their life. I prayed for my friend who just lost her friend to breast cancer. I'm sad for her...I've cried with her. It's sad for those left here on earth. So the pain we feel is OUR pain, not the pain of the people who have died. We're crying for ourselves aren't we?

redchief replied: My goodness this thread got WAY off topic, didn't it?

mom2my2cuties replied: I think so - But hey it happens...I don't have the energy to keep up any more tonight.


Augie has worn me out tonight. This dog is addicted to walks..We have taken like 5 today since 3

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Yes it did. That's bound to happen when religion is brought into it, right?

redchief replied:
I guess so. I kind of hoped that wouldn't happen.

luvmykids replied:
That was pretty much the rule of thumb for me, not that "a kiss" was such a big deal but the fact that teens for so many reasons may not know how to stop. I guess my parents had it easy, I had a very loud conscience and I couldn't do a darn thing without it barking at me.

I don't know that the Bible is loud and clear when it comes to sexuality in the sense of A,B,C are ok, X,Y,Z isn't....

luvmykids replied:
I know what you're trying to say

luvmykids replied:
I was going to try to stay out of this but I just can't on this one...ITA with everything Aimee said and want to add something else:

God sent His Son to bear our sin, shame, sickness, you name it so that we could have relief from it. God does not, in my belief system, put "bad things" on us because it would totally violate the very reason He sacrificed His son. God does not operate that way, He is good, kind, loving, compassionate, graceful and merciful beyond what I can even wrap my mind around and I just don't believe it is in His nature to do the things He is often accused of.

I respect that others may not share this belief but the God I know is too awesome to not speak up for.

CantWait replied:
Cary when you find one let me know because I'm still searching. Of course in this small town there's not many options.

CantWait replied:
I think it got off topic, but not neccesarily in a bad way. I think people just have questions, and others are offering their beliefs, I myself have had a lot of conflict with the church and the bible in the last year, I found an awesome church finally in Edmonton, but nothing of that nature here, so I can definetly understand why people would have certain questions. I think it's good that people for the most part are going about it in a respectful manner.

Unfortunetly Tish's post got highjacked.

mom2my2cuties replied:

Tish doesn't mind

I think it's good if people have questions and others have answers

Boo&BugsMom replied:
No, because we are all still human with emotion. God understands that. Afterall, he created us.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
In my very humble opinion, that is the difference Jesus makes. Once you except Jesus, more things become clear.

luvbug00 replied:

Ditto. I was more interesting in the parenting aspect and how far can ones child go with their physical caring for one another without going past that line in thier religon.

cameragirl21 replied: no offense to you, Jennie, but Jen, this woman with als has accepted Jesus and is very religious.
It's made no difference in her life, she's still dying, she's still angry, and she still doesn't know why.
She has no more clarity than I do....
I think it's unfair for people to assume that I have no faith or relationship with God just because I'm Jewish.
The Jewish people have been around since long before Jesus or Christianity were ever even thought of and the fact that we're still here means that God has a plan and a purpose for us.
We are hardly misguided or confused.
And don't forget, Jesus was a Jew, just like me, he was born a Jew and died a Jew and he called himself a rabbi which means he took being Jewish pretty seriously....
I respect your beliefs even if I don't share them or agree with them, I think it's part of being a human being in a world where everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions and while I'm glad we can have a civil discourse on such a topic here, I feel as if people make assumptions about me and what I believe to be true just because I am not a Christian.

gr33n3y3z replied:
we raise our children to know right from wrong when it comes to relationships and other issues you hope they choose the right decision.

luvbug00 replied:

Oh come on! are you serious? everyone is at some point misguided or confused.

THIS is why I hate religous conversation People express their views and the people who's religon is not the majority somhow feels offended and it just goes down from there. I am not a devout anything. I learn from every religon out there and believe it or not Jennifer I even almost converted to the Jewish faith. Along the way I found several confused people. As did I when I was raised cathoilic and studied Budisam. (sp. sorry) Every religon gives and takes.

cameragirl21 replied: Nadia, you clearly misunderstood me. I NEVER said that as a people we know everything about everything. If that were the case I wouldn't be feeling the way I am about Jen dying now would I?
I simply said that we are not misguided or confused about our faith and our relationship with God and that the lack of Jesus in our religion does not mean that we are misguided and confused, which is what some Christians think.
And I never said I was offended, I am just expressing where I'm coming from.
And I never said my religion is perfect.
I think you really misunderstood what I was trying to say, Nadia.

luvbug00 replied: I'm not going to debate with you about what you said but I had read this entire thred well threw and that is how I interperted it. Glad you clarified what you ment.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Jennifer, I think it is incredibly unfair of you to suddenly begin to cry foul in this thread and say things like

That is something you said...nobody on here said you must not be very observant,no one once ever attacked your way of thinking as I think you have tried to do in veiled ways. YOu have been asked twice in the course of this thread if you have any children and although you have answered to everything else you have yet to clarify that question. I am going to take your non-answer as a No in which case for you to pose questions to mothers about their children getting sick is niether point making or something that I,as a mom, take lightly. I think Aimee and Brenda handled your questions very well but I have something to add- Being a Christian does NOT in anyway exempt me from asking way, questioning the fairness of it all or being left wondering. Is it fair when someone dies too young? Of course not. But my faith says that sickness entered the world when sin did and the bible clearly states that the wages of sin is death...I don't think it is fair when those wages are delt to children or moms or dads-we all are going to die-no matter what we believe-it is one of the sure things in life and most everyone who does leaves some behind wondering why-I have questioned it many times. I don't pretend to understand the plans that are at work in this world but I will stop well short of claiming I could do a better job than He does. We have all suffered loss that we felt was unfair...I believe you were the one who pointed out how many on here have lost a child either before birth and some after. Unless and Until you are a mother I for one will ask you to refrain from using my or any other child -real or imagined- in a hypothetical situation like you did. You don't have to use the examples-we all are well aware of the pain Kristen is feeling-it is the greatest fear a mother's heart knows.......

cameragirl21 replied: And Nadia, what do you mean by "believe it or not" why wouldn't I believe it? People convert to Judaism (and other religions) everyday, there's nothing to believe or not to believe, that is the reality of the situation.
My outlook is simple--as long as you're a good person and you harm no one I don't care what you believe, you can worship trees for all I care. And just for clarification, when I say "you" I don't mean you, Nadia, specifically, I mean this for all people in the whole world, not just on PC.
We have a Yiddish saying that says, "it's far better to be a mensch and not a Yid than to be a Yid and not a mensch.
Mensch means good person in Yiddish and Yid means Jew in Yiddish.
So as long as you're a mensch, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
And just for the record, I'm not offended, nor am I easily offended, I just feel that people misunderstand what I and my people believe in and this misunderstanding has led to the senseless slaughter of many so it would be wrong for me not to clear things up so that there is no misunderstanding.
If anyone still misunderstands anything I say, with regard to religion or anything else I say ever then please ask me to clarify it and I will do so happily.
The point of learning is sharing information and knowing more than what you knew before you entered the discussion, even if you don't agree or don't see it that way.
My being a minority here on a board with clearly strong religious beliefs should not lead anyone to think that they cannot learn anything new from what I say, even if they don't agree with it or don't see it my way. I have learned from many of you, even though I may not agree with your opinions or beliefs. It's a matter of gaining knowledge and knowledge is power.
This is how we evolve as humans and what separates us from other species, IMO....

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Alright children... let's stop all this stuff about religion. The question, I believe, was HOW FAR IS TOO FAR?

I don't think there really is a too far for an age... this is why, before I get flamed.

You love someone...you shouldn't be limited as to how you love that person. We are human...but we are MAMMALS. As mammals, females, no matter what species of mammal, want some loving during ovulation time. Pre-teens and teens just don't know what "lovin" is...ya know? I personally got my period at 9 years old... so as of 9 years old, my body was ready to prepare for childbirth. My mind wasn't, but my body apparently was. By North America's standards, I sure wasn't ready to have a baby at 9 years old. However, if I were in some under-developped country, at 9 years old I could have been sold off as a sex slave, or a child bride...simply because I got the "flow" and would have been consxidered a woman.

I know that when I was 12 or 13... I didn't know what "horny" meant, or what it did to your body... but I felt stuff when I was around boys. The butterflies, weak knees, dizzy, the typical young girl crush stuff... well that's "love".

There are very few mammals that are monogamous for life by nature... humans are not one of them. Nature takes its course when we procreate... and it's survival of the fittest... which could explain why most "sluts" are pretty and why most "players" are hunky men. The urge is there to spread the seed and harvest, so to speak. When we stay with a partner, we chose to do so...because we are one of the few mammals that are not totally driven by instinct. We have free will in pretty much every aspect of our lives. Like a dog, we like playing...even if our playing might be golf... like an ant, we work...though they wor to survive, we work for money in order to buy the things we need to survive... we urinate, we defecate, and like animals, we mark our territory. We have a designated place to do our "business", and we feel invaded if someone comes into our house without our permission...territory baby...

Humans are driven by instinct, but most of us have learned through the ages that you need to conform to society's standards. Those who do not are shunned by the majority. Majority of what? Who cares... Christians, caucasian, latino, black, asian, jewish, agnostic, muslim...who CARES. We are all part of a majority somewhere, and arguing pointlessly about our religious beliefs and/or defending them will not change a darn thing, it will just #@$@ you all off.

Sorry if I've offended anyone, I'm just tired of seeing posts get driven off course because of religion. Who cares what religion we are... the point that has brouight us all here to this website, is parenting. The past, present or future of parenting...no matter what geographical area, race, or religion we are.

luvbug00 replied:

Because many people when I tell them ARE surprised by the fact that a person from a strict roman catholic up bringing would want to convert to the extreme opposite of the religon they were raised. Also if you read any of my posts you'll notice I tend to be very light and joking, I was speaking in a light manner.

luvmykids replied:
The op asked for a Christian point of view which I think is why we got off track

But you have a point

cameragirl21 replied: Abbie, I'm going to go against my better judgement here and answer you even though my intial reaction was to just let this one go.
First off, when your people are led into ovens for their perceived beliefs or because people think they have horns on their head or because people spread rumors about blood libel THEN talk to me about crying foul. You have no idea what I have been through. I had to leave the country I was born (former USSR) because I am Jewish and because people hated me for it. Just fyi, my passport did not say Russian under nationality, it said JEW.
And all of that comes from misunderstanding and people's unwillingness to learn and be open minded. That is all I was saying.
And as for thinly veiled anything, Abbie, I shoot from the hip and speak my mind, NOTHING I say is ever thinly veiled. If I didn't come out and say it, then I didn't mean it, it's that simple.
As for my status as a mother or not, you have no idea what it is and perhaps you should consider that I may have personal reasons for not revealing it.
That aspect of my life is something that I am not comfortable sharing with this board yet because of a situation that happened and is still happening and if you knew what it was then you wouldn't have said what you said, I promise.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Correct, but the meaning of being a Jew back then (before Jesus came and died) is different than being a Jew by today's standards. Meaning, Jesus believed himself to be the Messiah, God's son, who died for our sins. Doesn't make much sense for him not to believe in himself. Jews do not believe that. I think when people make the statement "Jesus was a Jew" it really gets misconstrude a lot because there is much more to it than just that. Make sense? I'm not trying to put you down, and I respect your beliefs, I am partly Jewish by blood myself. However, I know that by saying Jesus was a Jew, it's much more than just him being a Jew. Know what I mean?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I've had enough of this crap. Jen, were YOU in a camp? No? then leave the camp out of this... it has nothing to do with this conversation. Really. We were "talking" about beliefs and Jesus's time...not 60 years ago.

I'm German by birth, btw, so if you want to be rude to anyone for the past, be rude to me, because of where I was born. Not everyone else because of their religion. I'm Soooooo locking this thread, this has gone far enough.