Crummy night last night....

Maddie&EthansMom wrote: We could not get Maddie to bed. Every time she went in her room she threw a screaming fit. It was so bad. Then she wouldn't stay in there. She was in and out of our room all night screaming her head off. We talked, we reasoned, we did everything we knew to do, but let her sleep in our room. DH was mad at me, I was mad at him...we were both upset with Maddie. It wasn't pretty around here. Finally at 4 a.m. she came into our room and fell asleep in our floor without saying a word. She had school today and I made her go. Her eyes are all red and she is obviously tired. I hope she doesn't nap at school so I can get her to bed early tonight...IN HER ROOM!!! We don't want her to make a habit of sleeping in our room. I think she needs to be in her bed. There is no reason why she shouldn't be in her bed. Her pediatrician lectured me on this. He said it is vital that she sleeps in her room, goes to bed at a decent time and that she is rested and the same goes for us. ITA, but I don't have the heart to fight with her and it IS a fight. I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown last night. My chest closed in and I couldn't breathe. After all of that, she won. She ended up in our room. I don't know what to do. I would let her stay in her room and scream, but I can't get her to STAY in her room. She is going to scream no matter what . It starts when we tell her to go to bed. DH backs me up, but we still are at a loss. I want her to mind me. She does so well all day long and minds me really well, but at bedtime she acts HORRIBLE! It is like she is possessed or something. It has a lot to do with DH being home at that time and her thinking she can play him and sweet talk him into letting her in the room. (which eventually happens b/c he wants his sleep) Last night he didn't back down, but like I said, we were up til 4! Is that what it is going to take to get her to stay in there?? I think I will camp out by her door until she gets the picture. I hate being this way. I feel so mean, but this is only the beginning and I need to nip it in the bud before it escalates to something more and we can't handle her at all. She needs to know that she HAS to mind us and she can't walk all over us.

Sorry, I'm just not very happy today. Parenting is so freaking hard sometimes. Why can't loving them be enough? Why do we have to be mean and ugly? Grrrrr!

My2Beauties replied: Honey I am so sorry you had a rough night! But you are right in sticking to your guns, Brian's little brother is 8 and still sleeps with his mom and dad, Brian admitted he slept with them until he was about 12 That would drive me nuts!!!!!!!! I get on Brian because he brings Hanna in our room with us if she wakes up in the middle of the night, he's too lazy to stand in there and put her back to sleep I guess so he just brings her in our room with a bottle knwing she'll go to sleep beside mommy and daddy! She's only 1 now, but she is getting into the habit already, she wakes up around the same time every night. When I get up with her I give her her bottle and pat her butt until she falls back asleep but no not Brian I don't know what to tell you about Maddie because I haven't been through this stage yet but I wanted to offer big HUGS!!!! Hopefully she'll get tired of screaming and fussing every night and just give in!

MomToMany replied: Wow, what a night! You said she's fine during the day. Has her sleep habits been a little wacky before this? You have been traveling a bit, which means she might be sleeping in the car more. Then she's not tired to sleep at night. I agree that this should be taken care of right away so it doesn't become a problem. Is she complaining of monsters in her room or bad dreams or anything like that?

I don't have any advice other than to stick to your guns to get her to sleep in her bed. She's testing her boundaries, and if you give in to this, she will try her best to get away with other bad behavior.

Sorry I can't help more.

((((((Aimee))))))

Maddie&EthansMom replied: She has done this off and on for years. She will do great and then all of a sudden she just decides she doesn't want to sleep in her bed. She does complain of monsters and bad dreams, but I really don't think she knows what she is talking about. I think Scotty says "Did you have a bad dream?" and she feeds off of that. She never tells us what the dreams are about. I must sound so insensitive, but I'm so tired. I get tired of the screaming and crying and fits. It is EVERY SINGLE NIGHT! The driving could have something to do with it, although we have been laying low this week. Maybe she doesn't get enough activity to make her tired??

I agree that she gets away with WAY more than she should. I'm not real good about sticking to her punishments. Today will be a different story. I'm going to have to do something.

MomToMany replied: Hmmmm, maybe she should run laps around the house outside to wear off some energy? My kids do! They will say "I'm bored", so I tell them to go run around the house 10 times. They do it too, LOL!

That could be the problem. Maybe just adding a half-hour of physical activity a day might help.

My kids get so tired they are usually ASKING to go to bed. I guess I'm a little paranoid about them getting enough exercise.


Good luck. I wish I could help you more. Let us know how it goes.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I am sorry. My husband said that his sister slept with his mom until she was married. I think at that point it becomes a need for the parent instead of the child.

It will be ok and she will get over it. She may seem like it's the end of the world now, but once she get in her own bed then she won't even remember it.

Kaitlin'smom replied: oh my I know what you mean about fighting to go to bed, Kaitlin has been doing for couple weeks, she is nto sleeping as much at night so I am working on a new bedtime routine and changing her bed time to a bit later, but I have also noticed if she does not get enough activity she is much harder to get to bed at anytime. Things are starting to get better with usm hopefully it will with you as well

MommyToAshley replied: Aweee, I am sorry you had such a rough night. I know how frustrating it can be to have one that hates to sleep. Ashley has always slept in her crib/bed, but she still asks to sleep with us sometimes. She hates to go to sleep. She'll whine, and then she'll start making excuses... I have to go potty, I'm thristy, Rock me please Mommy (which I do), I want to sleep in Mommy's bed, I want to give you hugs (her favorite excuse), and so on. Her latest thing is, "Mommy, I CAN'T sleep, come get me" I guess Daddy asked her if she couldn't sleep one time, and now it is an excuse. Once she gets to sleep, she usually sleeps through the night, it's just getting her to sleep that is the problem. I know Ashley gets enough excercise too, I think it is just part of her personality... she hates to sleep. She will outlast DH and I if we didn't put her to bed. Last New Years, we didn't force her to go to bed because we were at my BIL's house and she was still going strong at 2AM, with no signs of slowing down. I am convinced she would go on forever if we didn't enforce a bedtime. It gets so frustrating that we have to deal with this EVERY night, but I keep trying to enforce the bedtime and hoping that one of these days she will just give up and learn that I am not going to cave. If you find something that works, please let me know.

jcc64 replied: Here I come again, playing devil's advocate. I have been on every side of this sleep/independence issue. Maybe some of my experiences will help, or maybe they won't.
I was Maddie when I was little. I was, as far back as I can remember, completely terrified to be alone at night. I was afraid of the dark, afraid of my dreams (can even remember some of them to this day, and I'm almost 40!), afraid to be alone, period. There never were any manipulative intentions behind my behavior. I wasn't trying to "get over" on my parents. I simply needed them b/c I was scared. My parents were total hard-asses about allowing us to sleep with them. And so, I would lie in bed, terrified to run through what seemed like an enormous, dark cave to get to the safety of their room. My mom would get up, walk me back to my room, hang out with me for a little while, but I always knew eventually she'd leave me alone again with my fears. Of course I got older and grew out of it. But the abandonment and fear I felt as a child are still very present in my memories of night time as a child.
Flash forward to my own kids. With my oldest, I did things "by the book". I followed the conventional wisdom that your pediatrician subscribes to,(which I believe is incredibly old school) had him cry it out, and he did learn to sleep by himself, but I still feel guilty about listening to his screams outside of his door night after night.
My middle son slept through the night from day one, no intervention required.
But by the time Corey came along, attachment parenting became an acceptable parenting philosophy (at least to me), and I no longer felt an obligation to force my children to be completely independent at night if it wasn't an easy fit for them. My philosophy is now somewhere along the line of "Whatever it takes to get us all through the night with a good night's sleep". If it means I sometimes have 2 kids in bed with me, so be it. If it means I somehow got tangled up in Corey's sleep cycles, so be it. The point is, the idea that a child needs to spend an entire night in a dark room alone in order to be viewed as emotionally independent is nonsense, imo. You wouldn't leave your kid alone for 8 hrs during the day, why is it suddenly ESSENTIAL at night?! If they need you, they need you. Parenting is a 24 hr a day gig. Some kids can handle the solitude just fine, and if you have the good fortune to have one of those kids, lucky you. But if you happen to have a kid like me, I think you need to adjust accordingly. If you're uncomfortable welcoming her into your bed, set up a little sleeping bag on the floor of your bedroom, let her know that's her spot if she needs you in the middle of the night. Maybe just the knowledge of your availability and willingness to be there for her will eliminate some of the behavior problems of which you speak.
The fact that you mentioned that she's such a good girl during the day lets me know this is not simply a manipulative ploy on her part.
And as always, my little disclaimer here- I mean no disrespect to people that believe in crying it out. I'm just trying to share my own experiences here.

A&A'smommy replied: I would like to let you know that I was up and down from 230 this morning until 530 when I finally got up! It was horrible but I'm FINALLY calm... ((((BIG HUGS))) and I hope you get this fixed soon!!!!

DansMom replied: I was like Jeanne too---and actually, I still don't like to sleep alone to this day. I was fortunate to have an older sister I could sleep with when Mom would not oblige. As I got older, I slept more and more on my own, but would occasionally seek out my mom or older sister even at the age of 11. I can still remember my big sister in one of her cruel moods making me sleep at the foot of the bed one time (like a dog). To me that was better than nothing! Maybe a little compromise like a sleeping bag or small cot in your room would help her get some perspective. I think some people really feel isolated in their own room at night.

Where is Ethan? Do they share a room, does he have his own room, or is he with you? I'm just curious if there's any sibling equality issue going on in her head.

jcc64 replied: Hey Tracy-
The irony of my situation is that while my parents wouldn't allow us to sleep with them, they allowed not 1, not 2, but 3 LARGE dogs to sleep with them (with their heads on the pillows no less) after we all moved out!

Jamison'smama replied: Although the independent sleeping is very new to our household--Jama just moved into her "big girl" bed less than 2 weeks ago--we are just trying to play it by ear--she has stayed in her bed all night twice--other times either we go in with her or she comes to us in the middle of the night--she is never scared or crying, I think she just misses us. Putting her in her own bed at the beginning of the night allows DH and I to have our time alone so by the time she comes in, we don't really care.

Have you tried a reward system at all? I imagine you have but maybe you make it for smaller things like going to sleep in her room--you can then increase the amount of time required to earn that reward--that is to say that she is not afraid like Jeanne said---that may be a completely different issue.

I'm just sorry this is so rough on all of you! Sending sleepy Maddie vibes ~~~~

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Jeanne and Tracy, Thank you for your insights. I have often felt that there is an underlying issue to why she acts this way at bedtime. DH is almost certain there is something there. He says she acts afraid. I feel horrible for pushing this, but part of me really believes she just doesn't want to sleep. She is afraid of 'missing out' on something and once we tell her she has to do something she resists and fights us. That is her personality. She sleeps with a light on every night and our door is right across the hall from her room, however when she comes into our room she walks ALL THE WAY around the house to the door on the other side of our bedroom instead of going thru the door across the hall from her. To me that isn't behaviour of a child who is afraid of the dark or boogie monsters. KWIM? She does the same thing when she needs to go potty at night. Instead of using the bathroom right across the hall from her she uses ours and walks all the way around the house to go. I was a fraidy cat when I was little (just as the 2 of you described) I was terrified of the dark and terrified that someone would come thru my window and kidnap me. My parents DID let me sleep in their floor on a palate whenever I wanted. I just don't recognize these same fears in Maddie. I could be wrong and I hope I'm not b/c I would feel terrible. Our door is always open when she is afraid and she knows that we would comfort her if she were sick or afraid, but her complaints (excuses) are that she isn't sleepy, she wants hugs and sugars, she is thirsty, she has to potty, etc. Really there is no harm in letting her sleep on a palate in our room is there? Other than the fact that she WILL NOT go to bed until we do and DH works long hours so we go to bed really late. I feel that by that time she is so wound up and beyond tired. I think she needs a proper schedule and bedtime routine that works for all of us. We all need an adequate amount of rest and we aren't getting that when she is in our room.

Ethan has his own room and he sleeps in there just fine. I put him to bed between 7 and 8 and he curls up and goes to sleep without making a sound. He loves his bed.

I would not have posted this here unless I wanted experiences and the truth from you guys. I am willing to accept all possibilities. I truly am at a loss and don't know what else to do. I appreciate all of you. None of you will hurt my feelings by offering advice.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

This is Maddie to a TEE! Her favorite is the "Oh, I forgot to give you hugs and sugars!" And her daddy asks her things like "You can't sleep?" or "Are you having nightmares?" So now she uses those too. She doesn't even know what a nightmare is. She will tell me she had a bad dream with a sly look on her face and when I ask her what it was about it is always something silly that has nothing to do with "Bad". KWIM? Maddie usually sleeps thru the night, too. Lately she hasn't been, but normally she will. She won't slow down, either. She will stay up as long as we let her. My mother said as a child she hated to sleep....she still does. I'm gonna go crazy trying to get this right.

jcc64 replied: Well, imo, co-sleeping(in whatever form) is a completely seperate issue from bedtime avoidance. We enforce a pretty strict bedtime routine around here. I lie down with Corey when it is time to go to sleep, and stay with her until she is, which usually takes a few minutes. Some days are better than others, and if she is having trouble settling down (which she has lately b/c I just weaned her last week), I get increasingly sterner, raising my voice just a little so she knows I mean business. Somehow, she gets the message and falls asleep. I can then get up and carry on with my night.
So, it seems like you're dealing with 2 seperate issues here. I'm sure you know about the importance of a predictable bedtime routine every night. Here- it's a bath, a book, and then bed. She knows that there's no getting out of it. No negotiating, no drinks, no extra books, etc. If she really acts up, I remind her that if she wants company when falling asleep, she better get busy falling asleep. There can be no ambivalence on your part.
What goes on if and when she wakes up in the middle of the night is a different story, which I think I covered in my previous post.
Good luck, Aimee. I know it's hard, but you've got lots of company, if that's any comfort!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Thanks Jeanne. Like I said, she rarely wakes in the middle of the night once she is down and we have no problems allowing her in our room if she does wake in the night, it is getting her to sleep initially. We do have a bedtime routine that we follow every night. Book, prayers, snuggles and bed. This is her time with her daddy.

I did ask her why she won't go to bed and she told me she wants to spend time with her daddy. He gets home a lot earlier than he used to, but once he is home there is no getting her to bed before we do. She wants to stay up with him. If he is going to be late I do the routine and try to get her to bed before he gets home so she won't be up so late, but as soon as he walks in the door she is out of her room and the fight is on. He doesn't enforce the rules that she has to be in her bed. He gets her everything she asks for.

Yes, we have issues.