Disciplining

coasterqueen wrote: I have to get this out because I'm still FUMING mad right now at Kylie. I actually can't believe this is STILL bothering me this morning, but there is still steam pouring out of my ears.

One of my girlfriends has a 2 year old boy. He's actually almost as tall as Kylie which shocks me because Kylie is so tall for her age. Anyways, she never really wanted to get together for a playdate before because she was worried Kylie was a bit to rambunctious for her boy. But now that Ryan is out of town she decided that we'd give it a try because I could use her company and Kylie could use a playmate as well to make the time pass.

So last Saturday night we went over to her house and played for 5 hours. Kylie and her boy got along GREAT. We both were amazed and she even said her boy never acts this polite. So we were excited and planned another playdate for last night. They came over to our house last night. Kylie was the most HORRIBLE, AWFUL child EVER last night. I hate saying that about my child but it's true. I just couldn't believe her last night. I have never seen her be so flat out mean, rude, bad, bad, bad in my entire life. She was utterly embarassing. I wanted to put her in her room and not let her play, but well I don't know why I didn't.

She just wouldn't listen to me at all or to my friend. Her boy ended up playing with Megan more because of how mean Kylie kept being.

I had a talk w/her after they left and sent her straight to bed. I didn't even read her any books or sing her a song because I was so livid I knew I was going to do or say something I'd regret. I'm still very upset about this today. Why does my child have to act so badly and I see other people's children act so well? Her boy was just so kind. I mean, he had his times where he didn't want to share, etc, but NOTHING compared to how Kylie acted. I know it was partly because he was on her turf, but still.

How do I discipline her? I've tried time-outs - don't work. I've tried no tv or books before bed (part of her routine) - doesn't work. I've taken away things that I think are important to her but nothing is really important to her. I take something away, she fusses a bit and goes on to something else. I just don't know what to do and it has to stop. I told DH last night on IM that she has to stop this, she just can't keep acting like this. She's also been whacking kids at daycare with BIG objects and really hurting them.

When I talk to her about what she's done, etc...she's really apologetic. She'll keep saying she's sorry and she won't do it again. She'll even say "will you forgive me mommy". But then 10 minutes later she's right back at it.

She's even been mean to her sister. She was shoving a toy in her mouth the other night and yelling at her to keep it in her mouth.

Now I know you are thinking that she's acting this way because DH is gone, but that's entirely not it. She's acted this way for a very long time and I've just not been good at dealing w/it I guess. I've tried a billion things and nothing helps.

I have no time, no time at all, to read books to help figure out how to discipline. I feel like I've posted about this so many times so obviously I'm not doing a very good job with disciplining her.

Is there ANYTHING I'm not thinking of???? I don't ever ever want to spank her but I tell you I'm starting to wonder if that's the only thing that's going to make that kid listen. I've warned her that I'm going to spank her and I've even talked to her about how Papa used to spank me and how it hurt.....she doesn't seem to be phased by it.

Boys r us replied: Perhaps she was just tired. Plus, it's a whole new ballgame when someone comes into HER house and wants to play with HER toys! You know. Now I'm not saying that this is a good enough excuse..but could be what was causing it.

I think the only thing you can do is just constant enforcement of the rules..and consistant discipline when she breaks them! She will get it! Hang in there!

ian'smommy replied: This is just a suggestion because I know I would be completely upset too about this too. I can't remember how old she is again but i'd like to say that she's about 3?
Anyway, maybe try asking her if anything is bothering her. SHe may say yes, she may say no. If she says yes, ask her wht is making her sad or unhappy. SHe may not say, but at least you are trying to identify with her feelings and she will know that. Eventually you may get an answer. Again, it's just a suggestion it doesn't always work but it's worth a try. YOu can ask her several times a day or just a couple times but you can ask every day. That way maybe she doesn't feel like you are just mad at her in general, but are concerned about how she is feeling. I hope it makes somewhat of a difference. Good luck.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I've never dealt with this personally (yet) so I'm not sure how I would handle it. But, it sounds to me like you are doing everything you can. Just be consistent in your punishments and talk to her about what exactly it is that she is doing wrong and eventually she will understand.

I'm sure it was b/c he was in her territory, as well. She probably felt threatened and if he was paying attn to her sister it probably made her jealous and she wanted to get his attention and did so by being forceful and mean.

I'm shooting in the dark here. :/ I don't think you have a HUGE problem. I think she is just a kid and your friend needs to give her a break. Probably if she hadn't made it so known how she felt about Kylie you wouldn't be so worried or stressed by Kylie's behavior.

kit_kats_mom replied: I agree wth everyone else. It's not so bad.

I've found that Positive discipline works wonders with K. Every day after daycare I pick her up and we discuss being a good girl. I try to point out everytime she does something good and let her know that it makes me happy. Now she knows that if she's good & eats her dinner, she gets 20 minutes of computer games or a short movie (her choice) before her bath. It's made a world of difference. In fact, if you ask her "what happens when you are naughty" she will tell you "I don't get privliges" It makes her feel more in control.

Also, prior to any kids coming to our house, she and I discuss it and go through her playroom removing any toys that -she doesn't want to share. Lord help the child who tries to play with her sit and spin.

coasterqueen replied:
In fairness of my friend she didn't make it known to Kylie. When Kylie would smother her boy (per se) she'd just ask Kylie to give him "space" as they call it in their house. She's made it known to me about Kylie's behavior, but not to her.

My friend and I parent VERY different, but are ok with it. We'll never see eye to eye on parenting so we don't even talk about it. She believes in a child should be afraid of their parent (which I do not), as well as other things that don't fit with my AP lifestyle. So we definitely keep that out of our conversations. I'm sure she thinks my parenting has a lot to do with the way Kylie acts and that might be so . Her boy listens to her and her DH and never acts out, but sometimes I wonder if "fear" is the driving motivation there. I digress.

DansMom replied: Well, Daniel's not very aggressive in general but he definitely has bad days like that; I do know kids that are on the high needs/aggressive end of the spectrum, and based on them I'd say that Kylie's behavior is within the range of what is normal for a 3YO---including the not-caring attitude about discipline. She has been spirited from day one (just like you, Karen ) My efforts at discipline are pretty wimpy, inconsistent and lame too; but things really go south when I'm angry and my goal is to punish. I definitely have gotten to that point and felt that level of frustration you describe---and been embarrassed and mad at myself afterward. When I'm handling things well, for Daniel's timeouts I stay in the room with him as long as it takes him to calm down and be able to talk about what just happened. I tell him what I want him to do next, whether it's apologize, put his toys away, and ask him to agree to it before we leave the room.

I know you don't have time to read, but I was given a book called Assertive Parenting, and just in the first chapter I saw all kinds of things I was doing that were undermining my effectiveness in disciplinary situations. One of the main mistakes I was making (and I still slip up and do this sometimes) is that I would ask him questions like "why are you doing this?" I still haven't read a lot of the book (no time either), but it is a short one---more of a guide book than a long-winded dissertation.

Some kids have better times of day, too, and some do better at neutral playspaces. Perhaps you could maximize the chances of a good experience by noting when and where Kylie is at her best and scheduling around that.

A&A'smommy replied: I'm kinda shocked at your friend but I can kinda understand her point, but still I mean maybe if she wouldn't have said anything that would have helped you to be more relaxed. Have you tried bribing her? I know that sounds awful but maybe you could be like "kylie if you can be a REALLY sweet girl with your friend tonight I will read you and extra special book tonight" or something like that maybe even ice cream Probably the best thing to do is just be consistent like Amiee said. I'm sorry I know that is hard to see your child act like that (BTDT) especially when you know how sweet they can really be!

coasterqueen replied:
We do a lot of positive parenting as well, which is why I don't understand her actions sometimes. Kylie will also tell you what happens when she misbehaves with saying "I don't get priveleges". So she's very smart and understands it, it's just like she has a short attention span and forgets and I guess that's it. I probably expect way too much from her when it comes to remembering how to act. It's hard not to though.

I haven't done the going through the playroom thing, but toys wasn't really that big of an issue though, well some. She'd just be down right onery to him, jumping off the top of the couch onto his HEAD and things like that. He wasn't even paying attention to Megan until after she started doing things like that to him. Oh and he's a shy boy and wouldn't talk much and Kylie kept trying to make him talk by yelling at him and pushing his cheeks together and say "YOU TALK!" and "WHY WON'T YOU TALK".

She hit the child at daycare twice now because he wouldn't play with her. He ran away from her and she ran after him with a big plastic doll and repeatedly hit him over the head telling him to play with her.

DansMom replied:
I never thought of doing this! What a great idea!

coasterqueen replied:
Tracy,

Yes, she is definitely spirited just like me. I think what makes me so afraid is the only thing my parents could do to control my spiritness was to spank me. That is the ONLY thing I feared. Course I would also just look at them and say "ok, spank me". They would and I would be upset but then go back to doing what I shouldn't be doing. Now this was a huge issue later in life, but I continually did things to spite my parents my entire childhood/teenage years and I really don't know why - it had to be their parenting (something missing maybe?) and that's what scares me constantly with Kylie.

I think I will have to make our playdates at neutral locations, but that's so hard with Megan too, because she's still young to where wherever we go there's no where I can just sit her down so she can play, kwim?


Oh and Jessy Ann - I bribe her constantly if she'll go for it, but she doesn't.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
This is what I meant. I probably didn't word it correctly. But, would you really be so concerned about how Kylie acted had your friend not told you this?

If someone told me that my kid was rambunctious I would be on pins and needles the entire time I was around them (which would in turn cause my kid to act out MORE). actually I'm not sure I would EVER go around them again with my children. I just think that is a little harsh for her to tell you that...I don't care how close you are. IMO kids are kids and they all have different personalities. Kylie is more aggressive...so what? Her kid needs to learn to deal with aggressiveness in life, just as much as Kylie (supposedly) needs to learn to be a little more gentle. That is no reason not to have them play together.

JMO.

My2Beauties replied: Karen all I can offer is I foresee my future in your post - for the most part right now Hanna is pretty good but she hasn't turned 2 yet and I can see some things getting progressively worse from day to day. She thinks that she needs to smack everyone and I mean HARD! She also does things on purpose when I say no to them a minute before, she'll stop and then go right back and do it, look at me, do whatever it was I told her not to do, and then laugh about it Hon, if you figure it out please let me know, parenting is so tough especially when you have a very "independent" child as I like to call Hanna again and I am so sorry, this is the last thing you need right now!

coasterqueen replied:
You are probably right and it's a fair thing to say. There are many things that would make me NOT hang around a friend again, but for some reason this isn't one of them. Maybe it's because *I* knew how my child is/acts before she ever did. She's truthful in her observation and to tell you the truth I always worried about it way before she said it. Kylie is NOTHING like most kids I've met and DH and I have always been worried about how she plays with other kids. We don't let her see that, though. She IS more aggressive then even most boys, she is very outgoing, she intimidates kids and adults sometimes and maybe we have more of a problem with it than we should.

A&A'smommy replied:
YES that is SO true anytime WE go anywhere that isn't really kid friendly I'm SO nervous about what is she going to get into and stuff, it ALWAYS makes her act up more!!

ETA: She sounds like she will make a GREAT lawyer some day!!

amynicole21 replied: Kylie and Sophia are cut from the same cloth Sophia just got in trouble yesterday for hitting her friend at daycare. When we talked about it, she got big eyes and said "it's not nice to hit, right mama?" and said she wouldn't do it again. We get this a lot.

One thing that has worked for Sophia once or twice is to let her hear us "bragging" about her on the phone with a friend or something. We would say "Sophia has been sooooo good about going pee pee on the potty this week" and she would work very hard for the rest of the day to continue her good pee pee streak Perhaps before another playdate (if you can work up the nerve for another one!) you could let her hear you say "Kylie has been such a good friend lately - she shares all of her toys and makes me so happy! And she's so gentle with her friends, too." I don't know... it wouldn't hurt anyway.

I'm sure most of this has to do with their age. They really can't empathise (sp?) well yet, so they don't understand that it hurts their friend's feelings when they smack them on the head. If we are consistent, they will learn eventually.

PS, I also worry that my AP style is not the best for Sophia... she may need a more heavy-handed parenting style due to her personality.

Boys r us replied: A Little humor here..but I bet she'll have lots of boyfriends when she gets older..sounds like she is pretty non-acceptant of rejection(making him talk to her) I can just see her in high school squeezing a boys cheeks together telling him that he will take her out!

coasterqueen replied:
This is what everyone I know has said about me! I've always wanted to be a lawyer as well. I would have so much fun arguing . I just never went for it. Hmm, maybe Kylie will.

coasterqueen replied:
Well, if she follows in her mother's footsteps she probably will. Another thing I'm deathly afraid of. Course I never forced a boy to be my boyfriend though.

coasterqueen replied:
Glad to know I'm not alone. I will try the "sweet talking" a bit more. I do this often, but maybe not often enough. Maybe she hears me being more upset with her than hearing me praise her good.

ediep replied: kAREN,

I know how frustrating this is. My best friends daughter is like this most of the time....maybe even worse. She makes Jason cry sometimes. We have found that if she is tired or hungry she is a nightmare especially if we are at her house. She won't share any toys and tells Jason NO! all the time.

My friend thinks it is her reaction to the way her cousins treat her, she said that they bully her at family parties, so she realizes that Jason is smaller and so she bullies him.

There isn't much more you can do, time outs, send the friend home, talk about the behavior...you are doing all that already


Good luck

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I kind of had the impression that something was just bothering her to make her act out. In that case I would pull her aside (while the playdate is still there) and talk to her. Ask her specifically what is bothering her. I know when we are at other people's houses sometimes Maddie will act out. Not violently. She won't hit, but she will become impossible. I usually pull her aside and ask what it is that is bothering her. Usually she is tired. The last time this happened she was just jealous that my friend's little girl was getting more attention than she was. We were at her grandparent's house after all. I had to put her in the other room until she calmed down. I had to do it repeatedly until she got the point. We eventually left b/c she was tired and I couldn't hold her accountable for her actions. That wouldn't be fair.

However, now I'm getting the impression that this is just Kylie's personality. In that case, pulling her from the situation and talking to her would still be effective if you are consistent. Get down on her level and discuss in detail why her behavior is unacceptable. This is HARD to do. You have to do it everytime you notice her acting out and make sure the daycare does it as well.

I have a feeling I will have this problem with Ethan. He loves to hit, shove, bite, pinch.....the list goes on!

moped replied: Karen, can I ask how you give her a timeout? As in, what are the steps you take when you are about to give one?

I do not feel it has anything to do with DH being away........................JMO

moped replied: Are you interested in a book?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Sounds like karma to me.... (jk!!)


My kids are pretty spirited too... aothough not like yours, by the sounds of it. DH and I don't hesitate to take the kids out of a situation where they're acting up and sit them on a chair somewhere a little farther away for a wuick time out - so they realize that what they just did - are doing - is not a nice bahaviour, and they won't get to play if they doh't stop.

They got it eventually. Now, we just have to ask them if they want to be pulled out of play time.... they stop their bad behaviour!

Jamison'smama replied: Okay, again, you have described Jamison --especially in her own home. It is an absolute nightmare having kids here for a playdate! What has been most effective when kids are here is to be very structured which means the parents have little downtime. I also remove any toys that I know cause trouble.

Some of the last few things I have done is I set up her tent in the living room, put in 2 flashlights and a basket of books and THATS IT--no free play in the playroom where all heck breaks loose. I have also done art projects--give the kids a sack to make a puppet or anything really and put them at separate ends of the table with their own art supplies.

So, maybe structuring playdates would work---or just play along with them. I asked a parenting expert about this and her suggestion was play along with her until she can do it on her own--giving her guidance along the way--again, totally ruins parent time.

Maybe her kid comes over for a movie and popcorn--IF you invite her over again--the mom sounds like a pain to me. I have a friend who is similar--her son doesn't like to be touched, hold hands, hug, etc. and Jamison is one touchy gal--makes it hard!

Another thing I have learned recently, from what I understand, time out was originally used for ADHD kids and was completely different than the way we do it-the idea was when kids get out of control, they need to regroup and it was not really a punishment, the idea was to find out what calms your child, music, laying on pillows with books, water etc. and send them to do those things until they were back in control---"go wash your hands and face", put on headphones and listen to music, lay in bed with a sippy cup. I find that Jamison gets over-stimulated and she will go her room and use her pacifier--(I know, not great--but she calms down). Maybe you can find what works with Kylie and try that--her daycare provider can use that too.

Hang in there Karen, you are not alone!!

coasterqueen replied:
Well I've given her warnings by telling her that if she does something (whatever it is) again, then she will sit in time-out and I explain to her why I gave her a warning. Then when she does it again I get down to her level and ask her if she knew what she did wrong. She'll sometimes know and sometimes not, if she doesn't know I'll explain it to her and tell her she has to sit in time-out for 3 minutes. She will ALWAYS say sorry on her own. When 3 minutes are up I talk to her again about what she did wrong and tell her that if she does it again she will be in time-out again. Then I let her go. I can't always sit right by her during time-out because I may be doing something w/Megan but the time-out chair is in the foyer and she can see me from there whether I'm in the kitchen or livingroom. She just can't see me if I go into Megan's room to change a diaper.

And as far as books, I'd LOVE to have time to read books, but I get ONE hour at night to myself to clean up the house, get things ready for the next day, etc, etc and I also cram in a few minutes to IM my husband since that's the only way we get to talk these days. I only have a 1/2 hour lunch right now while DH is away and I usually try to cram in whatever errand I can. If I could get away w/reading a book at work, believe me I would and I'd be online less.

coasterqueen replied: Some great tips to ponder Brenda! Thanks!

I think structured play time would help. We do play along with the kids for sure. Gosh if we didn't I can't imagine WHAT Kylie would do to the kid.

And the time-out issue, you gave me a lot to ponder on that and maybe I need to rethink that. I know there are lots of times that she gets cranky or mean and she'll even ask to go to her room and watch a video. Most times I hesitate because that means she's watching too much tv, but I guess if this is how she would like to regroup then I should let her. Hmmmm. Thanks again.

Jamison'smama replied: I should have put in a disclaimer---I recently learned about this time out thing but have not put in into practice---I am a fly by the seat of my pants parenter (is that a word) right now and not effective for sure---let us know what works because goodness knows I need help too. I am working towards the motto "set her up for success" if I know she can't handle certain things, I avoid them for now--hence the structured play.

Jamison is also struggling with being nice to her brother---let me know if you come up with a solution for that.

So, if you think about it, what can you do to set Kylie up for success? What are her buttons and how can you recognize/avoid them? That's what I am looking for.

ETA--Jama is also watching TV while using her paci--if it calms her and it is for short periods so, who cares?

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Exactly!

redchief replied:
I've been reading this thread for a couple of hours now and I've purposely avoided a reply. I simply don't have enough information on Kylie's behavior to give insight on what I would do. I am concerned however, on a couple of issues. The first is determining the difference between simple misbehaving and violent behavior.

Aggressive children can and do interact with other children without resorting to violence. Violent children should not be mistaken for aggressive children. Violent children intend to cause harm. Young childern are indeed capable of understanding the difference between wanting to be in charge of group and wanting to injure someone. This behavior is evidenced in Kylie by her apology and aknowledgement that what she did was wrong.

The other thing I am concerned about is that standard forms of discipline aren't working. I know that what works with one child may not work with another, but it floors me that Kylie is so indifferent to time-outs and depravation. Usually one or the other works at her age.

Finally, before I insert my foot firmly in my mouth, I'm curious about something. When you speak with Kylie about her misbehavior, what is your demeanor and reaction(s)?

Jamison'smama replied:
Doesn't do any actual behavior change for Jamison either---she's not thrilled with it but it has no lasting effects--from what I understand, that is not uncommon for spirited children.

MommyToAshley replied: I haven't read everyone's post because I don't have a lot of time right now, but I plan to come back and read everything tonight. I am sure everyone has lots of great advice and I want to read it all.

I just think some of it is Kylie's inborn personality, nothing wrong with that... some attributes will make her very successful in life and probably business. But, I can see how you would be concerned about Kylie hurting others and why you want to change that behavior.

The thing that stuck out to me is that Kylie played great for 5 hours on one day, but yet acted up another day. We all have bad days, but obviously something triggered her reaction. The problem is figuring out what caused it. It could be that she didn't like having other kids in her home. It could be that she was tired or hungry. I've tried to get back into the habit of giving Ashley a nap again, especially on days that she has preschool or other activities. She's a completely different child when she is tired. She also eats or has a snack, every two hours. It maybe something small like an apple or a few raisins. But, I remember reading that one sure way to keep tantrums to a minimum is to keep their blood sugar at a consistent level. I have noticed that if we are out shopping and I didn't bring a snack, Ashley will be less tolerant of everything. So, in our case, I believe that having a regular nap and snack/eating schedule has helped.

As for discipline itself, we use timeouts. I don't spank either. When I tell Ashley something, I usually count to three and then it is timeout. If she hit someone, I would probably put her in timeout imemdiately though, but I haven't had to deal with this yet. Just a funny story... the other day, I had told Ashley several times to stop doing something, and when she didn't I put her in time out. She looked at me and said, but you didn't even count to three.

It's still a struggle for DH and me to agree on discipline. Since we are both home all the time, it's even more important that we come to an agreement. He thinks I am too soft. I don't always use timeout; if it is something minor then I use distraction. Like I said, when she is tired, she is a different person... so at those times instead of disciplining her I will do the opposite, give her a hug and read her a book and then let her lay and watch a video or read a book on her own (even if she doesn't go to sleep). DH thinks I am teaching her that it is ok to whine when she is tired, but I say we need to choose our battles and discipline for the important issues. He does bring up good points and I often wonder if I am being too soft, it's really hard to find balance.

So, I guess my point is that we all question our parenting skills. But, it sounds like you are doing everything you can... just stay consistent, I don't know anything else that you could try. I don't think spanking is the answer, that is just my own personal opinion. Hang in there, be consistent, and Kylie will likely outgrow this stage with your guidance.

coasterqueen replied:
Well that's actually are hard question Ed. I guess I've never thought about it and maybe that is an area I need to look at it. Most times I am calm and just tell her like it is and don't really have a reaction to it. There are times, I will admit, that I get angry with her and show her my unhappiness, which I know is not good. No excuses, but some days when dealing w/a screaming baby and her actions send me over the edge, especially with no one there to help. Although that's not being really fair here because I am a yeller, I admit it. I can't just talk, I yell. I am and have been working REALLY hard on this, believe me. I know that it can not be good for either of my children so I do strive to work on this issue every day. But I really do try to just be calm when punishing her. It usually takes me the second time or so of her doing something before I really lose my temper.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
This is what I was trying to say, although I probably didn't say it as eloquently as she did. I just thought there had to be a reason behind why she was acting out.

jcc64 replied: I don't really have any one magic bullet for you, Karen- just a few random thoughts.
I think you need to take a deep breath and remind yourself you're not raising the next Jeffrey Dahmer. You're right to be concerned and to be searching for a discipline method that is effective with Kylie's temperment. But as embarrassing and horrifying as it may seem at the time, I think her behavior is still on the normal end of the spectrum, albeit towards the aggressive end. I think what you're really wondering is where is the evidence of her empathy and compassion, of her conscience? And I think you need to remember that empathy is by and large a learned behavior, but just like some of us are quicker on the uptake with math or science, some of us are better at empathetic reasoning. That doesn't mean she can't learn it, and she must, but it will be an ongoing process, and along the way you will cross paths with parents and children who have an easier time digesting the whole thing, and it will cause you to continuously question yourself. And that insecurity is ok too, because it's a good motivator, and we as parents always have to reassess our methods and ideas and whether they are working at any given time. I don't think it ever ends.
When Alec was Kylie's age, his best friend was "spirited". (Alec was one of those timid, hang back types). He used to bite Alec so ferociously that the bite marks would be on his skin for up to a week afterward. He would scream, hit, freak out, anytime the situation wasn't unfolding to his liking. At the time, I was convinced there was something wrong with this kid, and that surely he would someday wind up in a class for emotionally disturbed kids or in jail or whatever- his behaviour seemed so over the top compared to Alec. And I was sure that Alec's good behavior was largely a result of my superior parenting methods.
Then I had Noah. Noah was one of those kids that parents used to find all kinds of excuses not to have playdates with. He was wild, he was overly energetic, he loved to engage his friends physically. He was not endeavoring to hurt his playmates, but his overabundance of energy often obliterated his ability to understand that at some point, it stopped being fun for the other kid. They would complain to their parents that Noah was too rough, and Noah was perpetually oblivious to the other kid's perspective. To this day, (and he turned 10 today), it is still a struggle. While he has matured and learned how to control himself physically, he still doesn't have an acute sense of when "enough is enough", kwim? He always goes one step too far. And I am still paranoid that he doesn't display enough compassion towards his peers. But we're working on it. And that's my whole point. It's a work in progress. And the way I see it, at a minimum, I have at least another 8 or 10 yrs to get my point across. Just be careful not to pathologize Kylie's personality. Every personality trait has a flip side. The very same quality that causes her to be demanding and uncompromising will also allow her to pursue her career and life goals with the energy and determination to see them through. It's your job to nurture the positive potential of her raw materials and temper the more troubling flip side. It sounds like you're doing just that, Karen. The fact that she readily apologizes proves that she's trying to internalize what you're saying on some level. She's gonna be fine in the end, really.

MyLuvBugs replied: Oh Karen, I'm so sorry. I wish I could help, but I'm a firm believer in spankings, and I know that's not what you want to do.

I will offer some advice though...I do think that you shouldn't warn her, and then not follow through with the threat. So, if you have threatened to spank, but have never followed through with it, she's learned that "oh mommy's just all talk and no show" (in a way). Kids are VERY smart. If you threaten a punishment, no matter if it's time out or spanking or whatever, you have to make good on it or they'll never believe you. Kids LOVE to test you to see how far they can go, and since your the parent you have to define where the limits are and stick to them. It's hard for me to stick to mine when Lorelei is being cute and naughty all at the same time but how else are they to learn.

It will get better. It has to, right?

redchief replied:
Karen, we're all guilty of that now and then. It's called being human.

I'm still not sure what I would try to do, but I think you've already taken the first step. You realize that what you've been doing up until now isn't working. It's time to get creative! Much of what you're going to wind up doing to get Kylie to tow the line will probably be up to her. She's obviously smart, kind of like our John was. What I finally wound up doing with him was playing a little example game (Kylie may still be a little young for this). During times when there was no tension between us (ie. there wasn't a specific incident he could point to that instigated the conversation), we talked about things kids do that are okay and things they do that aren't okay. I asked what he thought should happen to people who hurt others on purpose. He said something to the effect that they should go to jail. Then I asked if children who hurt other kids should also go to jail and this strange face came over him. He looked down and said, "I guess so."

Then I explained that a lot of times kids don't know how to control that. He looked me in the eye and said that he did too know how to not hit kids. He never hit another kid that didn't hit him first. Like I said, Kylie may be a little young for that, but there are good possibilities in a lot of the responses I've read.