Do you believe....

cameragirl21 wrote: Do you believe some people are inherently evil (or bad if you don't like the word evil) and if so, what do you suppose makes them evil (or bad)?

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I believe that everyone is born with the capacity to be either 'good' or 'evil'. I believe that in those who choose to be 'evil' (ie. those who harm another or prey on the weak) perhaps that inherent side can become the ruling side, if you will. I beleive that a choice must be made at some point though. Rarely do you hear a murderer or convicted violent offender that does not take pause or reflect that the choice was made to continue in the crime they commited. I believe that the excuse of not being able to help themselves is used but I do not buy it.

On the flip side of that I also believe that anyone can be pushed to violence and in some cases murder. I know what my reaction would be if someone hurt my child or my husband or family but in a lot of ways I don't believe those acts are tied to an 'evil' nature.

luvbug00 replied: I believe that people are made evil by neglect or abuse in some fashion.

The child i spoke of who roams the neighborhood will be bad when he grows up. he is severly neglected and constintly lies, disregards rules, gets into troubble. I dread the day he is old enough to make freinds with other hoolagins thinking that they are his family. Ohhhhh such a scary thought.

But i do believe we are the product of our envoirments and that although we are born with cirtin disposisons they can be surpressed. Just because one is born to a parent with alcohalisam doesn't mean that they themselfs will be alcohalics. Yes there is that proof that they are more suseptible but by making the right chosises and in the right enviornment surrounded by the right people they can avoid this fate.

Danalana replied: Well, you asked!

I believe that we are all "bad", or sinful because of the fall of Adam and Eve. It doesn't mean that we necessarily act mean or anything. Just selfish, etc... That's just my simple answer.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I see it a little differently-although we have the same beliefs in the fall of man, etc. I believe that we are all inherently good with the capacity to choose 'evil' (sin). I feel that human nature in it's base form is compassionate and giving. It is rare to find a child under the age of 5 that will not show remorse when an explination of 'hurting someone's feelings' after a playground name calling session is ended. I believe that we are all made to feel empathy, remorse, and love for others. I suppose that environment probably plays into it but I still believe that a choice is made to ignore what we all basically know is 'right' or 'good'.

cameragirl21 replied:
So you don't believe that baptism or salvation (or something to that effect) makes you good, Dana?
Do you believe that all humans are born bad and doomed to be bad forever? Btw, if that is what you believe, I am not knocking it (although I do not agree with it) just asking for clarity in your answer.
Btw, Anne Frank's most famous words were, "In spite of everything, I still believe people are really good at heart." Do you feel she was mistaken or simply idealistic?
Btw, if I sound snotty or whatever, I don't mean to, I know attitudes can be misread when written as opposed to spoken, I am asking in earnest and am happy to explain why I am asking this question if anyone wants to know.

grapfruit replied:
I actually agree w/Dana, but Nadia made a good point.

We have free will for a reason.

My mom is a BAD alcoholic. Like really really bad. Barely functioning I'd say. And alcohol isn't the worst of what she "does".

However, my brother and I totally are the opposite. Neither of us drink (well he's 17 so he better not be!) and neither of us WANT to. It scares the crap out of us that the predisposition toward drinking could be "in" us. He has his "eye on the prize" so to speak. He wants to go to a Music Conservatory when he graduates and sing. And sing for a lot of people. I'm hoping he'll get rich and famous and take care of me right.

A&A'smommy replied:
That is NOT necessarily true my husband grew up in a home where his father was a drunk and a womanizer and his mother abused them (they are COMPETE LY different people NOW) they RARELY ever told the kids that they loved them or each other and rarely ever showed affection to each other or the kids. My husband is VERY affectionate to our kids and ALWAYS says I love you, he rarely EVER drinks and he ALWAYS respected women and actually all the kids came out better than they what life was like for them when they were kids.

I do not believe that you are MADE to be anything I think that you can choose your own life and how you live your life.

We are born into this world as sinners, we all sin. We then are given the chance to ask Jesus into our lives and hearts when you do that you have become a born again Christian and then you are given the choice to live as such it doesn't mean you wont sin its our nature but you have to remember to ask God for forgiveness. And we can do that because he died on the cross for our sins and was risen again three days later.. BUT that doesn't mean you can go out there and deliberately steal, or kill (all sins are equal cursing is equal to murder in Gods eyes, a sin is a sin).

DVFlyer replied: I think we are a lottery selection of bits and pieces. Sometimes those pieces don't come out nice.

Danalana replied:
I don't think you're being snotty, Jennifer.
What I meant is that we are born into it...not that we can't be redeemed from it. Does that make sense? I don't take offense at your questions at all...I should have clarified.

luvbug00 replied:

Jessica you are right it's not always the case that the bad parents create a bad child but it is proven that unfortunately more often it is the case.

As for the statement about being born sinners , that is my whole issue about religon. ( i realize that you are only stating this belief so i don't direct my annoyance at you by any means) This one portion of the religon is why i have left my catholic upbringing and have turned away from God and religon all together. In my eyes every child is born innocent and because their parents do not choose to baptize them to state they believe in God that they are then declared sinners is just well, i don't agree with it. I don't believe God, if he is real, would turn away any infant from his arms because they are not baptized or an adult because they didn't declare their loyalty to him ( loyalty may not be the best word for it but i'm short on vocab right now).

Danalana replied:
I know this is getting off-topic, but I absolutely believe babies go to heaven! There is an age of accountability (varies with different children) when a child knows right and wrong and can make a decision. Babies can't do that.

Sorry for going off-topic!

msoulz replied:
I think so too. I think some folks are born with brains that just don't function correctly so they have no empathy, and without empathy there is evil.

I am pretty sure Ted Bundy's mom didn't raise him to be a serial killer, but something was not wired right.

JMHO

A&A'smommy replied:
I completely agree.. babies DEFINITELY go to heaven God would never turn away
a baby or a small child. Catholicism is COMPLETELY different from Christianity for the most part we agree on a few of the same things but other than that we don't there are things about Catholicism that i do NOT agree with.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Only answering this because it wasn't directly answered. Baptism doesn't create "salvation"...it is mearly an outward expression of professing our salvation through Christ, and salvation does not make a person bad or good, whether you are getting baptised as a baby, adult, or going through confirmation. Regardless of a person's salvation or non-salvation, people are still people and we all make bad choices. I believe even a person who professes their "salvation" can turn into an 'evil' person. That is where the temptation of Satan comes in. EVERYONE is falable regardless of where your heart is. It's up to us to be strong and use good judgement.

I am in agreement with Dana, but I am also in agreement with Abby. Shocker there hey?

I think there is some misunderstanding of baptism all together, whether it be infant baptism or adult/child baptism. There is also a big misunderstanding of when people say "we are born into sin". For that answer you can delve into the Bible for answers on that one. If we were not born into sin, then well...we wouldn't sin now, know what I mean? And that is impossible. We are still sinners whether or not you are baptised and getting baptised does not get you into heaven...salvation through accepting Christ as your savior does, period. It also doesn't stop you from sinning. Baptism is our way of showing our profession of faith. It's just that some denominations do it a little differently...first baptism, then confirmation, wheras Protestants (me ) go through dedication THEN baptism. However, the meaning behind it is more or less the same. Make sense? Troy was raised Lutheran, was baptised as a baby and then confirmed. I was raised Protestant, was baptised as an adult. BUT, my faith is no different and I or him are no less/more of a sinner than the other. I also don't think that just because other denimonations do it differently that it's wrong...it's just different, is all. Denominations are a bit different when it comes to a lot of subject matters, but the center of it is all the same...Christ, which is what is most important. I think too many people segregate denominations too much, when we are all under the same Christianity umbrella. Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists...all Christianity...just different doctrines is all. But still, are all Christian brothers and sisters.

BTW, Jennifer this post wasn't totally at you, just the beginning answering the question. I was basically answering a lot of posts, and I don't know how to quote more than one at a time.

Nadia, I am sorry you had such a terrible upbringing with religion. I don't know who told you all that, but if you really want to know the TRUTH, then I would be happy to answer your questions.

Now that I've babbled enough, I'm done. I don't know if I answered the original question, but I do believe that our environment plays a big part of who we are, but I also think no matter what a person can turn into "evil". I think some people are more easily tempted by Satan (my belief ) and those temptations are all around us. I also think some people are just like that, and I don't know why. Some people just weren't born with all the correct equipment I guess.

ETA: just to make a note, the God that I know and love would never throw a baby into Hell. I don't remember where in the Bible it is, but there are verses to back it up. I"m just too lazy to find them right now.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

I believe that there is evil out there that we can not even possibly comprehend. I believe that some acts of evil are just that the act of someone inhabited by evil-true pure evil....I think that while sinful nature (ie lying, jealousy, gossip,etc.) is inherent in humans actual evil actions and intent are a whole different ballgame

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I agree. I don't live far from where Jeffrey Dahmer lived. Scary, and that man was just pure evil.

Danalana replied:
I saw an interview with Ted Bundy right before his execution. He said he got into porn really bad and that's when things started changing in his mind. He started seeing himself torturing and raping, etc...

DVFlyer replied: I've watched porn and never had those urges. Some people are just wired wrong.

Danalana replied:
I know it doesn't happen with everyone...that's just when he said it started with him.

Bamamom replied: I believe we are all born into sin. We all have an evil heart because of the fall of man. Feel free to look up original sin in Wikipedia if you want more clarity.

I don't think that baptism or making a decision for Christ (or however else you want to word it - it means the same thing) changes us. It just covers us with the blood of Christ. So God sees Jesus's sacrifice for our sins instead of the evilness that is within us.

Why did God do this or why does He allow us to be born with this nature? Because when we make a decision to lean on Him and call on Him for salvation it brings glory unto Himself. That, IMO, is why the whole universe exists - to bring glory to God.

Happy to answer any legimate questions - but I'm not going to argue with anyone just to argue. You (in the general sense, not the specific - not pointing anyone out here) have the right to believe what you believe. Until you seek Christ with an open and honest heart then nothing that anyone here says is going to make a difference. The questions are always going to be there because until you call on Him understanding is impossible.

msoulz replied:
Perhaps, or maybe he was a just a sick jerk. I can't believe anything outside of a person can turn him so bad unless something was wrong inside.

But I am an accountant - not a researcher.

cameragirl21 replied:
At the age of 3, Ted Bundy woke his teenage sister up by holding a knife to her throat...I doubt very much he was into porn as a toddler, I think it's just an excuse.

kimberley replied: i am sure i will be in the minority but i do believe that some people are born "evil". and that their upbringing (nurture) can teach them to overcome their tendencies.
in the example of a child under five not showing remorse being rare... i guess i have a rare child. i have lived it and he struggles daily to do right.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Kimberly I am sorry if you took that to mean I would think a child who did not show remorse to be evil. That is not what I meant by that example at all-I was saying that it is my belief that people are born with an inherent quality of compassion. I have known children that did not seem to posess that quality and I do not think they will become the next axe murderer or something. I simply meant that most people are able to equate the feelings of others when the line is drawn to their own emotions and feelings....most small children have not yet learned to supress that tendency the way that some older children and adults have....

kimberley replied: i wasn't offended at all. your example just resonated with me because my son was not born with that inherent "good". i don't think he'll be an axe murderer either

Crystalina replied:
I don't think so. I'm Catholic but I don't believe the going to confession or going through a baptism will stop any evil. Look at all the Catholic priests who like to touch little boys. Nope, it's just a ritual to make the sinner feel better about his/her sins. I'm going totally against my religion but I'm not stupid enough to think any of that will make you good.

As for most of those serial killers like Jeffery Dahmer something happened to them as children. It had to have. I know JD was molested as a child. That's enough to mess any kid up. It's no excuse for his actions but it's a bit of history to think of. John Wayne Gacy, Jr. was also molested as a child. I'm not sure about Ted Bundy. I don't know enough about his childhood.

I do think some people are just wired wrong but at the same time they've had some sort of trauma in their life. Some of us can handle that (even the worse molestation) and some of us (them) can not and act out the evil that is in their head.

jcc64 replied: Interesting topic- one for the ages, really. Kimberly- I too have a child that came up a little short in the empathy dept. Some of the tendency to do 'good' is inherent, but it can be taught, too. He just needs more reminding than my other two.
As far as the OT, I'd say every major religion addresses this in some way. I think of the yin and the yang- there are two sides to every coin. We all possess the capacity for good and evil- even serial killers. I think the most benevolent person on the planet has a darker side, and the most heinous, evil psychopath has the capacity to do 'good.' The path toward Godliness, or spiritual enlightenment, is a constant striving towards our better selves. I don't think it's a Christian thing exclusively, I think it's a human thing.