Grrrrr, I don't like this a bit

cameragirl21 wrote: http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?slug=d...=yhoo&type=lgns
Sorry if any of you are Nascar fans but I deplore and I do mean deplore seeing this flag flown around.
Call it Southern pride but it is most certainly viewed as a symbol of racism and oppression.
Will I ever live to see the day that the stars and bars can finally be retired permanently??????

PrairieMom replied: It bugs me too, but I'm from the mid west. I think southerners see things differently. That being said, it is absolutely wrong to fly any flag, esp the stars and bars at the same hight as old glory.

luvbug00 replied: it's a free country, people can say what they want, display what they want. I can't say anymore then that to stay civil.

cameragirl21 replied: yes and no, Nadia...if they were flying a flag with a swastika on it they'd all get their @sses kicked.
Obviously, as a Jew that protects me but if I were black I'd not want to see the stars and bars flown right next to the US flag...what kind of message does that send?

luvbug00 replied: it's their right to fly what they want even a swatstika. I don't agree with it or like it but they have that right. I live in the "south" and see that flag all the time. the message is not agreeable to everyone but at least if it is flown near me i can point to it and show my children and tell them the history and what makes it a not well liked symbol.
there are 2 ways to look at demining symbols . you can see them and get mad or see them and educate children on why they are wrong and stop the cycle of rasisam. ( sp)

cameragirl21 replied: Nadia, I'm not trying to argue with you but what I meant to say is that flying a swastika is illegal in the US (as far as I know anyway, I'm not expert on legal matters).
And Nascar is considered a national sport like baseball. How can the stars and bars be flown at a national sporting event?!
It's one thing to have a stars and bars bumper sticker on your pickup truck (which I see down here all the time ) but it's another thing to fly it right next to the US flag at a national sporting event.
As you can see, I really don't like that kind of stuff and I can't say I think too highly of those who have stars and bars bumper stickers but I accept that it is their right. However I'd not partake of anything that flies such a flag at some national sporting event or anything official like that.
IMO, that's just messed up.

mom2my2cuties replied: *** Removed by me to prevent any trouble on ParentingClub ***

Didn't want my post to seem offensive to anyone so I am going to keep my thoughts to myself.

luvbug00 replied: I can't find it being illigal anywhere. I'm not trying to argue either but i just can't fight the rights living in this country gives us.

amynicole21 replied: I don't think it's illegal as long as it's on your own property. You can't put a swastika on someone else's property though.

I am surrounded by confederate flags on a daily basis here in FL. I use them as a sort of indicator of who the idiots are around me, and make sure I steer clear of them. I support anyone's right to fly any flag they want, but I think flying something like that at a NASCAR event is not a well thought out idea.

My2Beauties replied: Being from the south a lot of Southernors just see that flag as the "southern flag" and not a symbol of racism. I personally would never fly it or even have one, because to me is does mean "racism" in my eyes but I've asked people and that is what they say.

Crystalina replied: I have no problem with this flag being flown. It will never be flown in my yard that's for sure but this is the land of the free so let them fly what they will. I agree 100% with Nadia, we can either educate our kids and teach them what it symbolized (to us) or we can totally ignore it but we cannot ask for it to be removed.

My biggest beef with this particular scene is that the flag is equal with Old Glory. That should never never happen. That should have been fixed asap.


And to answer your question about the swastika...I really doubt it's illegal to fly it. I can't say for sure but I would almost bet that it isn't illegal at all.

My3LilMonkeys replied: ITA with Tara, it should not be flown at the same height as the American flag - but other than that, I personally have no problem whatsoever with their decision to fly the flag. I have been to 1 Nascar race here in Pennsylvania (where we don't normally see many Southern flags since we're not in the South) and those flags are EVERYWHERE - hanging on campers, vendor stands, etc. Nascar's decision to fly the flag officially was probably in my opinion due largely in part to their fans and their use of the flag.

PrairieMom replied:
Exactly.

redchief replied: One of the problems with the protection of the expression of free speech is that they have the right to fly the Confederate Flag. That being said, I think it's high time that Americans of all walks realize what a bigotted and ignorant message they're sharing. Fly it with pride if you must, but I don't see southern pride in it; I see ignorant redneck.

I would not, under any circumstances, tell them they can't fly that flag. I do like to remind such ignorant folk that indeed, they lost that war.

J-rod replied: it was a flag of war....society turned it into a racist thing.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
ITA!

The flying of a swastica is not illegal, tasteless perhaps but not illegal....


The sad thing about both these symbols is that they have been twisted to mean something they did not mean in the beginning of their use...and Ed,you may see ignorance but to many ,around here at least it is not a sign of racial intolerance but redneck...YES redneck pride! And the 2 do not go hand in hand in every situation

C&K*s Mommie replied: As a black woman, I cannot and will not be offended by such an inferior flag to the American flag. That will be the only flag that I would proudly wave. Those that choose to wave the Confederate flag proudly, or let it fly high on their trucks or in their yards, that is their personal choice. I can look the other way if it causes rise in me, which up to this moment it has not.

Every race with have an image or will take offense to something on the opposing race. Even within the races, there is opposition to certain images or figures. As Dale Earnhardt Jr said, "I am not going to agree with everything everybody does all my life. So I don't have any control over it." My thought is very elementary: there is simply too much going on in this sick world we live in to be overly concerned with what is flying at a public event such as Nascar. I will not lose any sleep over this. In fact, I will be sleeping so much better tonight, as Ed eluded to it, the Confederacy lost American Civil War, thus opening the floodgates to the end of slavery. I am a free.

redchief replied:
Call me a dumb Yank, but isn't that an oxymoron?

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
This is an endless arguement...IF you have a problem with the freedom of speech because I fly this flag (I do not BTW. Just making a point) It is the same thing as I having a problem with you (again not directed at you Ed just a general-You) having the right to wear fur or vote Democrat THAT is what freedom of speech is-I am FREE to say what I want regardless of who disagrees with me....I have plenty of problems with it but the other side has plenty of problems with what I have to say too!

cameragirl21 replied:
ITA with you on that, Ed...
Btw, just for the record, I never said, nor did I mean to say that I think flying the stars and bars should be illegal...if you want to fly it on your house, car, etc, that is fine.
But I don't see how this can be going on at a Nascar event...can you imagine the stars and bars being flown at a Yankees game?!
That's why I'm a Yankees fan just don't remind me of this ALDS, or last year's or the year before's ALCS....
btw, Ed, I have a few questions for you about CCD for my godson, would it be ok to PM you?

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
No actually Ed many of the men I know who proudly proclaim the title of redneck do so because they work hard and are proud of that...The term redneck came about from farmers who worked in the sun and had a RED neck above their shirt collar from working outside I will stop short of calling you a Dumb Yank...we tend to agree too often about most things

redchief replied:
I know where the term came from, but like many other terms with simpler roots, that one has become twisted into something else by show-biz. Like I said, you can fly or say anything you want, but some symbols have become rightly obsolete, and I think that flag is one of them. That's my opinion, and again, given with the full knowledge that others will disagree with it. I can live with that.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

I agree!

skinkybaby replied:
As far as flying another flag the same height as the American flag-
here in Texas the state flag is flown at the same height as the American flag because Texas was its own country before joining the nation.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
If Kinky has anything to say we will be again!

PrairieMom replied:
I don't have a problem with flying another countries flag at the same hight as ours, but I would also personally be offended to see the texas state flag flown that way. even if it was its own country at one point, it isn't now. If I visited Texas and saw that it would bug me.

J-rod replied: i guess some people just cant seem to let things go! i think some of you are being prejudice here...all the "dumb redneck" name call stereotypes.... just because someone has a rebel flag doesnt make them a dumb redneck. from the south...yes...but not a dumb redneck.....

people who live in a glass house shouldnt throw stones.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I'm not touching the Confederate flag thing... but for the Swastika - just for your info - since 1) i am German by birth..and 2) I am Native American by blood

The swastika means life and good luck, and are commonly used still in Buddhism (as you should know Nadia...) and Hinduism. It is on the spines of Ryduard Kiplings books... the early original versions that is. I know that it can be and is a touchy topic for Jews, but like I'm sure Jen knows, or maybe she can talk to older Jews who may have survived the Holocaust, they are most likely fully aware that the symbol of Swastika predates the Nazis by thousands of years.

What's totally screwy for me... is that the swastika is a very common symbol used in Native American culture. Hitler was obsessed with a series of books by Karl May, about Old Shatterhand...who was noted in that book series to fight against "Indians" (as in Cowboys and Indians) and always win... and well maybe he got the symbol from those books...there's a lot of speculation, anyways.

The sauvastika (counter-clockwise mirror-image of a swastika) is the version that means hate and death in some cultures...

Actually, Crux Dissimulata, another name for the Swastika, is a "twisted" version of the Holy Cross...used by early Christians to avoid persecution.

today, many try to take the clockwise swastika and interpret it as Hitler's 1920 Symbol of Nazi-ism... and use the counterclockwise sauvastika as the good version.

So anyways... just my tidbit of useless info...

ETA - the whole POINT of my useless post was to show that although I may use the swastika symbol, it doesn't mean I'm a Nazi. So jhust because the Confederat flag is flown, doesn't mean the "flyer" is racist.

Jamison'smama replied:
They may not fly the confederate flag at Yankee games but we have somehow found it acceptable to ridicule the Native Americans by stereotyping them as savages i.e. the Cleveland Indians and Atlanta Braves and their tradition of using the tomahawk hand gesture thing at all the games. Our country is full of racist symbols and I believe the confederate flag to be one as well but I'm with Amy, I can use that as a symbol of those with whom I would probably find very little in common.

cameragirl21 replied: Rocky,
I'm fully aware that the swastika is an ancient symbol and predates the nazis. However, the fact is, nowadays it's viewed as a symbol of naziism and anti-semitism and will be viewed as such by the majority of people.
Same thing with the confederate flag.
I am all about free speech and firmly believe that if you want to fly the stars and bars or carry a swastika, that is your right however at a Nascar event, for this flag to be flown by the "authorities" at the same level as Old Glory is repulsive.
The South lost the war and it's long past due we put away this flag and tried to display something that sends a more positive image of tolerance instead of one side pitted against the other.
BTW, I didn't know you're a Native American...I'm quite fond of Native Americans and have visited both tribes in my area (Seminole and Miccosukee) and will be going to one of the tribes to get my bow and arrow for my Sagittarius picture....

my2monkeyboys replied:
ITA! Also, I believe that flag etiquette states that any flag from a city, state, etc should be flown below the American flag, so ol' Dixie should be lower. I may be wrong on this, but I think that's the "rule." I think only other countries' flags can be at the same level as the American flag.
I don't think most people display the flag as a symbol of racism or that they wish the south would "rise again," but rather as a symbol of the pride they feel for their southern heritage. (And no, that does not have to include slavery. The civil war was fought over states' rights, not slavery. If that were the case then the northerners would not have owned slaves, which they did.)
I do not fly/display this flag, just bc it doesn't mean that much to me. But, in the land of the free, anyone can if they please.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Oh my gosh!!! I just spit my drink clear across the room. This sounds just like me. I automatically think "Redneck"

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Yeah... it's too bad that highly valued symbols are viewed for the negativity they were used for.



Yep... 5th generation. I even got me my 'Injun Tax Discount Card'...

I'm a descendant from the Abenaki Tribe. A cousin of mine is actually a Chief in a village further North, and was in Sudbury in August for a HUGE Native event to represent. It was featured in the papers.

I love Native stuff...so does my mom. She tries to get me to make her beaded stuff all the time... with a cheap little plastic loom kit she bought me at walmart... like as if I automatically know how to do it... I'd have to look on the 'net for instructions just like everyone else!

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well I am from the south and make many comments about being a redneck in real life. It doesn't mean I am racist at all. Often times it means something completely different at my house. For instance my husband is working on something and he has to use his brain and kinda of rig it up, you know duct tape and balin wire to make it work.. we say he "rednecked it" Now that doesn't mean he's stupid.. It means just the opposite, it means he was smart enough to make it work with out having to drive to town to get extra parts.

When I say someone is just a Redneck boy, I usually mean a country boy. A man who works hard at a blue collar job, likes to take his sons hunting and fishing, likes to drink a little beer and don't take crap off nobody especially involving his wife, cause no one is more important than Momma. Most Rednecks love the land, the woods God and Country and don't take crap of anyone talking bad about any of it. We say Grace we say Amen, and if you aint into that.. well it's a song anyway.

You know something I have often thought about. If we think of the worse case scenerio in the our world. Lets take Y2K to the extreme. Lets imagine that some day the world as we know it stops exciting. Which many Christain people believe will happen. A time when Money is no good, and the goverment and some entinty will control the world. I promise you the knowlegde of the REDNECKS might suddenly be a little more important. They know how to live off the land, cut fire wood to be warm, grow a garden, and raise there own food. The things they take pride in and you can't do in a concrete America. Those are the things Rednecks are proud of. They can take care of their families in any situation, they can make sure their families can get feed and help take care of their neighbors.
Thats what we in the south think a REDNECK is. Now if that's being stupid then I guess it's stupid.

But you see that has nothing to do with your color or anything else. Just because we talk a little slower doesn't mean we are dumb by no means. Most of our proud does come in our land.. most of our proud does come from being from the SOUTH but has nothing to do with being a hater of any kind..and I hope no one ever thinks I feel that way.

Now for the stars and bars.. It was the Original flag of the South.. The Rebel Flag per say. I think sometimes it's more about being a REBEL..meaning out of the box, free thinking, beer drinking, 4x4, have fun on a Friday Night with the coon dogs then it is about what color you are.

I know in my family we have friends of different colors, and I promise you that they can be just as Redneck as the rest of us.

One more thing about us Southern dumb rednecks, I promise you that if your Momma is broke down on the side of the road in the south... some good ole boy will change her tire and put her on her way.. we don't always need onstar. They would treat her with the same respect they would their own Momma and make sure she made it home in most cases. Now can you say that of the North. If your momma broke down in New York City, would she be helped by the good ole boys and no one ever have to worry about it?


I am sorry I don't actually fly the flag myself. But I don't want everyone to think we are ignorant dumb rednecks. Heck I work, vote and pay taxes as does my husband which I means we can't be all that bad. Dumb southern rednecks or not.

J-rod replied: OMG i just want to yell right now..... if i see the rebel flag referred to as a "redneck symbol" again im gonna flip! it is a southern heritige thing...thats all...all of the insecure and shallow minded people have come to make it a racist thing..... do you know how many BLACK people i see with it on a belt buckel or hat or soemthing...... cmon......dont be one of the shallow minded people that keep dumb stereotpyes like that going.


i agree...it shouldnt be as high as the US flag...but thats it.

J-rod replied: tanners mom - i love that! lol thanks for all that.... i couldnt have said it better.....and without my raw emotions.


i especially love the mom roadside thing...cause its 100% true!

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Once again it seems to me some are all about free speech IF and only IF it agrees with you..your views can be spouted from the roof tops BUT the minute you feel disrespected pack it up and put it away...that is not free speech that is censorship

J-rod replied:
Why yes ma'm

skinkybaby replied: Yeah, when I moved to Texas I thought it was so odd that they flied at the same height. I don't know how many times I had to listen to the we-used-to-be-a-country spiel

lisar replied: See below.

lisar replied:
I totally 100% agree with this post.

cameragirl21 replied: just for the record, my OP was not about rednecks or people's right to free speech or right to fly whatever flag they want.
In fact, last year, on Holocaust Remembrance Day, some freak in Miami put all sorts of nazi paraphenalia on his house and had his bushes trimmed into the number 88 (means heil hitler) and all sorts of obscenities written about Jews in Spanish all over his property and he had gotten arrested that morning (for beating up his gf, not for the nazi crap) so he wasn't home and a huge crowd gathered at his house. I stopped my car and got out just to get a closer look at all of this and the news media was there and all three local channels (abc, nbc, cbs) interviewed me knowing that I'm Jewish (I wear a Jewish star necklace most of the time) and asked me what I thought and I said that while I don't like it I believe in free speech and if this is what the guy feels then it is his right and no matter how much the newspeople kept trying to get me to say that he's a nazi and should die (or something to that effect, you realize they were looking for some drama b/c that is what sells) I stuck to my guns and defended his right to free speech.
my point was simply about the fact that this is done at Nascar which is a national event. People can put what they want on their houses, cars, and selves but this should never be considered acceptable at some public, national event.
JMO
As for rednecks and the South, I have nothing against either and that was not at all what my OP was meant to be about.

Crystalina replied:

My DH would never charge a man for anything, he works his butt off and would never ever in a million years say a bad word against anyone unless it was someone who messed with his family. He loves his title as a redneck yet he married a Puerto Rican. He's far from racist. Yes, there are the ocassional racist remark from a random aquiantance but my DH (and his redneck buddies) shrug the guy off and remark about what a jerk he is. I'm very proud of him and can only hope that my son grows up to be half the wonderful man his daddy is. Redneck or not. We don't take offense to that normally but it seems to be thrown out as an insult in parts of this thread.

mom2my2cuties replied:
I was sitting here thinking the same thing.

It is no different than using other racial slurs...And is really inappropriate.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

It is being used as an insult...don't understand why it seems to be ok to do so. This is not the first time that it has been used in such a way of late and all I can say is-(Crystal-we sound like we run in pretty similar circles )

The men that my husband counts as friends would give you the shirt off their backs,call you ma'm and hold the door for you. They all defend their families to the death and would come to any woman or child's defense regardless of color or creed! My husband is one of the smartest,kindest,most trustworthy and hardworking man I have ever known He is a bluecollar redneck And I am proud to say that I am his wife because frankly I know some well educated smooth talkers that aren't fit to wipe the cow crap from his boots!

jcc64 replied: Amy- your post was hilarious!
I also agree with alot of what Mel said. (except the part about NY'ers being lame with road side assistance )
I think the Confederate flag has as much to do with defiance, regional pride, and a you-can't-tell-me-what-to-think attitude as it does to do with racism. Alot of people have a visceral, knee jerk reaction to what they perceive to be the "PC" police. As Brenda alluded to, our country is full of racist iconography. In my son's high school here in blue state NY, there was a huge brouhaha about the school mascot being an Indian. Several Native American families requested that it be changed to something less offensive to their heritage. It seemed utterly reasonable to me to accomodate them- but other people in the district felt very differently- and it turned into a major brawl that revealed the type of resentment i alluded to about the confederate flag. I think it had much more to do with not wanting to be told what to think as it had to do with being attached to the Indian mascot.

And fwiw, I'm all for celebrating our regional differences and heritages, but I can't stand when we start reducing each other to stereotypes for literary convenience. There are idiots and nice people everywhere you go. It has nothing to do with any intrinsic superiority based on where you were born, and everything to do with how well your parents raised you.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

TANNER'S MOM replied: JCC I agree wholeheartly with everything you said.. and I am shocked..lol


I think we all have pride about where we are from and how we are raised. I promise you that my child may child attends class beside a person of color and never once feel that he is better than that person but he may refer to himself as a redneck boy. I think it's alot about where we are from when we say it. Where we are where you see the flag.

Yes there are some racist buttholes out there..but to me those are the skin head white supremacist and not the every day redneck southern boy. You will find just as many racist people in corporate America they just don't adverstise it.. which to me is far more scary. Especially when you are the person out there looking for a job to feed your family.

OH BTW the reason NASCAR to can wave a flag of it's choice is because though a National sport it's privately owned as our the expensive cars the drivers drive.
It's alot of revenue for the South. And most of the fans are good ole boys from the south.

I btw am not a Nascar fan.. We are more of the rodeo fans. But occasionally watch it.

Edited b/c I can't spell

cameragirl21 replied: boy, am i ever wishing i hadn't started this thread.
this was so not meant to be about rednecks, the south, or good ole boys.
i simply don't feel it's appropriate to fly any flag (or anything) at a national sporting even that is widely seen by most as a symbol of racism and oppression. i'm hardly the pc police i just feel that perhaps we should strive as humans to be more sensitive to the feelings of others when we put a flag that supported a people who kept other people as slaves at the same level as the flag of our nation.
i don't care what people put on their cars or houses or any other property of theirs, i just question the necessity of flying a flag deemed offensive by many at a public event, that's all, nothing more than that.

C&K*s Mommie replied: It is not. But there will always be a twisted side to everything. Think of all the stereotypes that you may have about this:

Jews
N*groes
France
East Indians
Asians
so on and so forth....

In no way does it make it right to refer to another as a redneck and call them dumb/stupid/an idiot, but there will always be stereotypes to overcome, I for one will not get angry nor lose a moment of sleep over anothers unfounded stereotype. Kudos to Mel for explained what it means to her, and revealing a side that is not often mentioned when talking of rednecks.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Thanks Nicole. I thought of you as I typed those things. I dont want to appear racist at all to you. I think sometimes other people take us back years when we could move forward by stereo types.. whether it be b/c I am a dumb blonde, or a redneck white trash teenage parent.. you know. Yes it can be anything... of course the racism that people of color have fought for years is nothing compared to what I am talking about and I don't want people to think I am saying that at all.

Thank you Nicole for reading my post for what it was meant to be. I appreciate it from the bottome of my heart.

Crystalina replied: I agree that it is how we are raised. A child does not know predjudice and hate unless they are taught that by their ignorant parents, be it against black people, latins or even what they consider a "redneck". My children do not know dislike for anyone. If anything I encourage Izabella (Evan isn't old enough) to reach out to those that are being picked on. There is an Amish boy in school that the other kids have noticed is differant. I'm not sure why he attends a public school seeing as how he is Amish (horse and buggy and all which is why he is being teased...the kids say he's too "poor" for a car ) but be that as it may she came home with her concerns about Daniel and I told her that he was just like everyone else and she should introduce herself. She knows the Amish so to her he isn't odd at all. So she introduced herself and now has a nice new friend (who likes to play with Babies with her. )

Our kids turn out to be the adults we make them into.

C&K*s Mommie replied: You are so very welcome, Mel. I have learned from others not to take things at face value and to learn more than the superficial. Sadly, I learned because so many people have so much negativity to say about white people from the South (no one here online, but in my everyday life) that I had to take a step back and rexamine things. I had to consciously realize that one person or a group of people cannot speak for the entire race, nor the entire population of those in the South who choose to let the Rebel flag wave.


Jennifer I understand what you were getting at with your original post, but there was some history and opinions to be heard here.

coasterqueen replied:
I had wondered about that.

The guy down the road from me is clearly a man of the armed forces, which one I don't know. He sometimes flies Old Glory and other times he flies the Confederate flag. I didn't see it as him being racist, though.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
My hubby isn't even from the south but this describes him to a tee, and many people around here, especially up nort'!

TheOaf66 replied:
that is not a cut towards me is it dear? U love me for being a country boy

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Not a cut at all honey! I love my country boy inside and out. That's why I married you...you redneck!

mom2my2cuties replied:



Sorry - I just had too

TheOaf66 replied: it's cute and you know it

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I agree - Jen - don't feel bad about the topic... I understand that you wanted to express the opinion that no flag, whatever it may be, should be flown at the SAME HEIGHT as the American Flag... it just happened that the flag flown was the Confederate Flag, which for some, can be construed as a racist act. Even if it's not.

I'm glad to have read such compelling comments from both sides of the fence... and I'm grateful that everyone kept it civil so far!!

jcc64 replied: I agree, Rocky. It's nice to see a somewhat provocative thread be handled with the civility we had all (until recently) come to expect here at PC. Hooray!



Mel- no truer words were ever spoken.

And Jen, I realize the topic strayed a little off course from what you originally intended, but that can happen here sometimes, and it was still a fruitful, interesting conversation, don't you think?

cameragirl21 replied: Thank you, Rocky, I really appreciate that.
And Jeanne, I don't care if any of my threads or anyone else's threads go off topic, I just hate being misunderstood and then accused of all kinds of sh!t like being against free speech or being a redneck hater or looking down on good ole boys b/c i'm a city girl or whatever other new and interesting things people can come up with to accuse me of, that's all.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
Jennifer, don't apologize for starting this thread. I find it an interesting one and I think everyone is staying pretty civil for the most part. Often times, threads just snowball into other topics...It doesn't necessarily mean the starter of the post provoked it, so I personally wouldn't worry. Your opinion is your opinion. One I actually agree with. I have planned large events before and I feel it's the responsibility of the planners to be careful of symbolism in signage and flags. Perhaps your market is proud of such flag, but when something is aired on national tv, you have to think of the national demographic as well. But that's JMHO. I also find Nicole's reply very inspiring, as I am often guilty of finding offense to things I shouldn't...being a Jew...and truthfully I should acknowledge that I don't have control over what others believe. If someone wants to hang a swastika, so be it. I'll look the other way, and have a little saddness in my heart, but again, getting angry towards that person is useless. I believe we should all emulate the same type of confidence as Nicole! You truly rock girl! You too Mel! I really enjoyed reading both your replies.

luvmykids replied:
You're right, it's a national and public event, but NASCAR is still a "private" entity entitled to that choice. If a government entity was flying it, that would be different but IMHO NASCAR flying it is not much different than some old fart who has it waving from his porch.

Just because something offends us doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed, all the people who aren't offended by it at NASCAR or anywhere else would think you're just as ridiculous for having an issue with it as you think they are for accepting it.

And, Mel, thank you, I also HATE the redneck stereotypes, to me a "redneck" is just a good ol boy ...it doesn't mean stupid, irreverent, ill mannered, etc.

A&A'smommy replied: oh goodness I'm glad someone stood up for the rebel flag whether you meant to or not but I was about to SCREAM for real when I saw what this post was about no offense cameragirl, but that flag means something to me and its NOT racism. I could go on and ON about how horrible slavery was, and how COOL the underground tunnels and all kinds of history of that sorts. I am not by any means even close to being racist but I will admit with pride that I do OWN a rebel flag and let me tell you right now it means something to me, it means SOUTHERN PRIDE I'm proud to be an southern alabama girl!!! That is ALL I have to say and thank you Mel and jcc for your posts they were awesome. And I hope no one thinks any different of me for admiting that I own one of those "horrible" things lol

this was very interesting post and it was great to see all the southern people come out and say something.

A&A'smommy replied:

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Sorry you guys. I was way out of line with my comment. I didn't think before I spoke and I didn't mean it the way it came out. Heck, I'm married to a good ol boy, myself. Redneck is something completely different to me and I wanted to clarify that to 2 very special ladies in this thread. I hope with all my heart I didn't offend you...that was NOT my intentions. I think you know my heart well enough to know that I would have never meant that against you.

It's just that everytime I see that flag I think of the movie "A Time To Kill" with Matthew McConaughey and Ashley Judd. Strange, but true.

Sorry again for being so judgemental and stereotypical.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Just wanted to add one more thing, then I will shush on this topic.

My nephew (Chase) when he was here in June drew a pic of a race car on a piece of paper for me. I have had it on our fridge to remind me of him. The other day I noticed there was a different car on the paper hanging on the fridge, it was the reverse side of the race car drawing. This drawing was of a 4x4 truck with what I think to be that extra tall/long antennae in the bed, and a rebel flag waving behind. I just wanted to add that this thread reminded me of that drawing that means so much to me since it was done by my nephew for me.

I have no problem with this drawing, his father and mother have Confederate flags hanging all over their home. Never once has an ill word been said against me for the color of my skin, by them, nor have they ever been crude to me in any way. If someone chooses to carry on the beliefs that another race is inferior, so be it, and if they choose to raise that flag as a mark and still be racist, I cannot do the first thing about it. Except to alter my thinking that not all who raise that flag are like those who raise it but openly admit to feeling superior to another race.

I am not making any sense.. I know.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Nic~I just had to say that I love ya girl!

J-rod replied: my dad has had a rebel flag on his front license plat all my life....thats how i know his trucks. my mom sewed a nice thing for him with a saying and the rebel and american flags on it. we are not "rednecks" just like the south.

also FWIW i have an actual Nazi flag from the war. my great grandpa brought it back....it is in a sealed bag in our cedar chest at my mom's house. kinda cool as it has bullit holes and blood on it from the war.

mom2my2cuties replied:
My ex's family had some of those too - His mom was german and have lived thier all her life - and his grandfater was a member of the Nazi Army.


But Dang - J-Rod now i feel like I owe you $20

J-rod replied:


why?

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
I too agree that no flag should be flown at an equal or higher height than the American Flag. Up here in Minnesota I have seen a lot of Scandinavian and Canadian flags flown next to Old Glory, and it doesn't bother me as long as Old Glory is higher- sometimes it isn't and that really ticks me off. If I was an American living in another country I would not hang my flag higher than theirs - it is a matter of respect.

Personally to me the Confederate flag doesn't symbolize racism, but I still am not fond of it because it represents a time when part of our country was trying to separate itself from us and fellow Americans were fighting each other. I know that good came of it and it needed to be fought but my loyal American heart still hates what is to me a symbol of rebellion.

But that being said I am not from the South and probably can't fully understand what it means and what it stands for to the people who live in the South. I hope I don't offend any of our southerners on the board.

TANNER'S MOM replied:
You never ever offended me in this thread~ I did not take what you said in any way whatso ever to be negative. We all have opionions, and I am glad this thread didn't get ugly. I think we all have something to bring to the table, but we all have to admit we can't always be right. There is always a side to things that other people from other cultures my not see.

I learn alot on this board, I am very opionaited about some things, and some thing I don't give a darn about. I hope I didn't come across as making this a debate b/c it wasn't for me. It was about explaining our way of life.

I again will say that no one in my home is racist toward any religion race color or creed and I thank God we will raised with love and no better. We don't hate, there is not enough time in our life for that, we barely squeeze enoough time in to love, I can't imagine wasting it to hate.

mom2my2cuties replied:
What an amazing thought!!! Thank you for saying that

cameragirl21 replied: I know I really should just let this stupid thread die but as a final word, I simply meant to say that I don't like confederate flags or any sign of racism, be it simply perceived or entirely intended and I especially don't think they should be flown at any sort of public event.
I wasn't aware that Nascar is privately owned but then again, every baseball team is privately owned, so is every football team, basketball team, etc and I have yet to see these sorts of acts of obnoxiousness take place at a baseball game, for instance.
I don't know enough about Native American culture to know if team names like Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians are offensive to them but if they are then IMO the team names should be changed. I will say that calling a football team the "redskins" is IMO revolting to say the least.
I never meant to speak of rednecks and southern heritage, which I have absolutely nothing against, my issue is that I feel that perhaps those who consider themselves to be Southerners should find an alternative symbol to display their pride, as opposed to a flag that was used to depict a people who believed in oppression and slavery, on top of which, they were soundly defeated. I guess I simply cannot fathom using a flag of a side that was utterly defeated as a display of pride, southern or otherwise.
There are IMO so many other ways to display southern pride, like a magnolia for instance...a big, beautiful, highly fragrant tree that blossoms mainly in the south.
That is not to say that I assume that everyone who flies a confederate flag is a racist because I know that is not the case but like it or not, the flag does represent racism as that is what it was intended for when the confederate army fought the Union.
And I never meant to say that I oppose free speech or that I think the flying of this flag should be illegal, I just think it's ethically and morally wrong and of course that is JMO, nothing more than that. However, I'm sure you if you ask a random group of people what they think of when they see the stars and bars, the most common response will be images of slavery, oppression and racism so it's hardly JMO if you want to get technical about it.
I'm not trying to trample on anyone's rights or beliefs, I'm simply saying that I don't like this and wish very much that people would stop doing it...doesn't mean I think it should be outlawed or that anything bad should happen to those who do it.
As to the posts about nazi flags, I won't comment on that because I have nothing nice to say about it so I won't say anything at all.
Plain and simple, I do not like confederate flags and ham
I do not like them, Sam I am.
I do not like them here and there
I do not like them anywhere.
I do not like confederate flags and ham
I do not like them, Sam I am.
with apologies to Dr. Seuss, although based on what I've read about him, I'm sure he'd be in full agreement with me on this one.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Lol Jen - nice poem!

(just for the record, I don't fly a Nazi flag, nor do I display a swastika in any way shape or form in my house. )

cameragirl21 replied:
thanks
and i didn't say or mean to imply you did, Rocky, that was NOT intended to you AT ALL...there were certain other posters who made references to nazi flags and that was who I was talking about.

my2monkeyboys replied:
I can appreciate your not liking the flag, and all it has been made out to supposedly stand for. I am not one who has the flag displayed anywhere, either. But to say that someone should not display it since they lost the war is just ridiculous. Countries around the globe still use their flag even though they lose wars.
Also, I must repeat what I posted earlier, in that the flag was not a symbol for a war that was about southerners wanting slaves and northerners not. People across the nation had slaves. The war was over states' rights. There are groups that chose to misconstrue the real reasons in order to further their own agenda by teaching that it was about slavery. While there were many who owned slaves (how could they have ever thought that was right!?!) in the south, they were also owned in the north, east and west. If you don't believe me, here's a quote from Lincoln about how he felt.
"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I ... am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position." ---Abraham Lincoln.
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.." ---Abraham Lincoln.
Again, that war was about states' rights. The southern states wanted to secede from the union, and the other states didn't want that to happen. That's what the war was about.
I think this topic should be about flag etiquette though, not about the flag itself. The American flag should always be ABOVE any other flag used in this country, and to the left of any flag used from another country.

Sorry for the long post!

cameragirl21 replied: willsmama (stephanie, is it?), i wasn't aware that abe lincoln was a racist but it doesn't suprise me...racism ran rampant then and it sadly it runs rampant now. luckily we no longer keep people as slaves, although it's done in other parts of the world to this day.
i didn't mean to say that the confederate flag should not be flown simply because the confederacy lost but rather because it makes it a rather silly display of pride when you consider that not only did the confederacy lose but it no longer exists.
i think perhaps something else would be a more appropriate symbol of southern pride, that's all.

my2monkeyboys replied: I think that most who display that flag do so as a symbol of the heritage... those that fought (though not successfully) to have more control over their lives. I don't think they really focus on whether their side won or not, just on what it was about. (Did that make sense?) Not to say that there aren't some who are bigots and believe it was about races, but luckily I think those are a dying breed.
Oh, and yeah, it's Stephanie.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well Jenn thats the good thing about living in the good ole USA.. you don't have to like them. You can make as many rhythms as you want about them. I think it's great that everyone can voice an opionion and you know the southern flag waving boys fought for the rights of Freedom as much as anyone else. And still are

I think the racist point was addressed.. I am not sure we needed to rehash it. You can think I am a racist, you can think I am whatever but only Me, myself and I know what I am in my heart. No, flag waving is going to change what is in my heart. It may make people JUDGE me ...but again who has the right to judge another person. I will have to meet my maker and face my judgement..as will everyone else. Until I am judged then, I will try not to judge and be narrowed minded and stereotypical.

I think sometimes we just don't know when to let go. Like I said.. I wasn't attacking, I wasn't making a judgement against you.

But maybe I felt a bit judged by the comments made I will admit that. But that's the whole point isn't. Should we judge other humans to be less than we are?

Stereo types suck no matter who you are.

mom2my2cuties replied:
I don't think the people (INCLUDING MYSELF) were making a direct dig at you or anyone else. People aren't as malacious as one might think on here. J-Rod mentioned it because he thought it was interesting and I was responding directly TO HIM! No one else. I have seen them as well - and they hold historical value which is something I find extremely interesting - and mean something to my former inlaws who are Germans.

cameragirl21 replied: Mel, I know I should really just let this go but for the record, I wasn't judging you or anybody and I think I made it abundantly clear that I don't think that flying this flag automatically makes anyone a racist.
i just don't feel it's appropriate at public sporting events or public events of any kind.
everyone should feel welcome at public events here in the beautiful USA, and that's the bottom line IMO.
there are so many things in life that divide us that why strive for one more? that's all.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Well, the thing is, someone will always be offended by something or someone. That's when you just gotta walk away and learn to deal with it.