Hope EC discussion is not off limits...

ChristineBabb wrote: Hi all,

I just read through the earlier EC thread and was sorry to see the discussion ended, although I can see where it was going sour, and understand the mods decision to lock that thread.

I just wanted to say that I was one of the women interviewed for the GMA piece. They did a so-so job of getting across the concept of EC - I cringe at the use of "potty training" to describe it - and I can see why there would be such a varied reaction to the story as it was presented. It seems that almost every mainstream news organization is talking about EC lately - some do a much better job of conveying information about it than others. (There's a really nice op-ed piece about it which ran in yesterday's NY Times - I can post a link to it if that's allowed.)

Anyway, if discussion is not off-limits, I would be happy to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions, as far as they pertain to my personal experience with EC. Also, thanks to Boogabearz, Mollie, Kit Kats Mom and ammommy for their thoughful comments on the topic.

Christine
Mom to Bea (6 mos.) and Chris (diaper free since 1986<g>)

coasterqueen replied: Hi there. I have a question for you, just out of curiosity. I may have more on the subject later if you don't mind. Can I ask, if not too personal, are you a nursing mother? I'm just wondering how nursing mothers deal with EC when breastfed babies are more "explosive" than formula fed babies.

Thanks.

TeagansMom609 replied: Ok, im lost. What does "EC" mean anyway?

ChristineBabb replied:
Hi Karen,

It's not at all too personal - I was exclusively BFing until about three weeks ago. I work part-time and was pumping for DD when I was away, but she was drinking about 3x more than I was able to pump at work. Pretty soon all the frozen breastmilk I had "banked" in my (hahahahaha) leisure time was used up. I tried for awhile to pump early in the morning, late at night, whenever I had some down time (again, hahahaaha), but I still wasn't able to keep up and I was getting pretty stressed over it. So now I supplement whatever breastmilk I can pump with formula for the two mornings she spends with the sitter each week.

Since we started using formula around the same time we began solid food, I can't say for sure what the difference is between ECing a BF baby vs. a FF baby. However, Bea was pretty reliable with her pooping when we started ECing with her when she was about 9 weeks old. She usually pooped around the same time(s) each day, and I would just hold her over the toilet, make a cueing sound ("psspsspss") and if she needed to go, she would, usually within ten to fifteen seconds. Generally, it's pretty easy for me to hold her so that everything goes into the toilet, and I just have to give her bottom a quick wipe with a tissue or TP and then flush. I didn't notice an excessive amount of "explosiveness" - it was more like squirting.

With solids, that's changed a bit, too. Her poop is now still very soft but definitely not liquid. And stinkier, too, of course. :-)

Because I have a bad back, I would use the bathroom sink on occasion (mostly for pees, but her BF poops were liquid enough that I could rinse and wipe down the sink w/o problem of they happened there). I don't use the sink very much anymore, as she has begun to sit up and can use a little potty seat, and her poops are more formed so it's more work to clean it out. Ultimately, I want her to associate peeing/pooping with the toilet, anyway, so we use that about half the time; really, it depends on what's closest to us when she needs to go.

ChristineBabb replied:
EC is short for "elimination communication", a method of recognizing and responding to a child's elimination needs, in much the same way as parents learn and respond to their child's need to eat, sleep or be held/comforted. A few common reasons that parents choose to practice EC are: to recognize and respond to baby's self-awareness; to promote close communication between child and parent; to prevent diaper rash; to avoid struggles often associated with diaper changing and toilet training; and, as side benefits, to save money and use fewer environmental resources. (from the www.diaperfreebaby.org website FAQ)

kimberley replied: ok i have a question or two... hope you don't think i am dumb for asking...

how do you leave the house?
do you use diapers at all?
how often do "accidents" occur and for how long?

coasterqueen replied: Thanks Christine for your insight. I will admit I just can't seeing myself doing this and maybe it's because that whole issue of going in the potty appears to me that she'd be growing up and I don't want to do one more thing to make her grow up earlier. I know it sounds extremely silly, but that's how I perceive it and maybe society has contributed to my perception, I don't know.

I have noticed the difference between both my girls, though, that would make EC'ing difficult to do with Megan. At least I see it that way. The reason being that Megan still at almost 7 months still doesn't quite now how to use the sphincter muscle. I guess that's how you put it. She still will tense up when she really needs to poo, therefore not going poo and making things worse for herself. Kylie got over that problem at a very early age. So Megan is a guestimate on when she'll go. She farts more than poos it seems but when she poos it's definitely explosive. I still can't get her 'cues' on pooing because i could change her diaper and right in the middle of changing she poos and it's definitely too quick for me to get to a toilet.

I'll be very interested to see where EC'ing goes over the years. Whether it will gain popularity or whether it will suffer like BF does, trying to gain some ground but doesn't. KWIM?

thanks again.

ions_momma replied: I also have a question. How do you do this at night? If you are sleeping, how do you know when they need to go to the bathroom?

coasterqueen replied:
Oooh good question. I'm curious about this too. My guess is babies would wear diapers at night. I'm up all night BF, I can't imagine up all night watching for them to poo. Although my girls usually poo'ed immediately after nursing at night time.

holley79 replied: Thanks for explaining what EC means. I was reading and was totally lost. (Guess this is what happens when I sleep my days off away.) Sounds pretty interesting. I am a mom- to- be so all new things are quiet interesting to me.

Thank you for the link also. I will have to check that out.

ChristineBabb replied: I will be in the office this morning, so I won't have any time to reply until later today - will post as soon as I can, though.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Thank you so much for giving more information on this. This topic is absolutely open to anyone who wants to 'discuss' it. Anytime there is opportunity to learn...I'm open to that.

I'm looking forward to learning more about it and hearing more from you this afternoon. This is very interesting to me.

A&A'smommy replied: I agree it's a VERY interesting discussion and having someone experience in this subject to enlighten us is nice! Thank you!

ChristineBabb replied: I should preface my remarks with this disclaimer: these are the opinions and experiences of one ECing parent, and I don’t presume to speak for other ECing families. Also, I want to make it clear that I am trying to present information about EC – what folks choose to do, or not do, with that information is none of my business.

That said, here goes:

<<how do you leave the house?
do you use diapers at all?
how often do "accidents" occur and for how long?>>

Yes, I use diapers! (I was annoyed that Good Morning America said that DD was “hardly ever in diapers” – ummm...she had one on for the interview – duh!) When we go out, I almost always put Bea in a diaper (unless it’s a very quick trip or she’s just pottied and I know she’s unlikely to need to go before we get someplace). I use cloth most of the time because if she pees/poops, she will notice the wetness, where she might not with a disposable. When we're out an about, I carry her in a Maya Wrap or other sling. She almost never pees when she’s in the sling, but gets pretty wiggly so I know to take her to the bathroom. One thing I have learned is that it pays to always offer her a chance to potty when we get someplace, even if she just peed before we left. [An aside: I LOVE restrooms with the changing table *in* the stall – I can get her undressed, pottied and dressed again much more easily that if I have to leave her diaper/pants on the changing table (possibly in some other mom’s way!) outside the stall.]

Home is a different story. As much as I can, I leave her bare-bottomed, when we are playing or I am close by. It’s much easier for me to read her body language this way. Other times, I put her in a cloth diaper without a cover, so that if we do have a “miss” (I try to avoid calling them “accidents” – it’s ME who’s missing her signals, and it happens) and she’s sitting on my lap, I know right when she goes. Very often she will start to pee a tiny bit, and if I notice and pick her up right then, she will stop, long enough for me to get her to the bathroom or potty seat, where she will finish. One thing that really surprised me was learning that babies *can* learn to control their bladders this way. I used to think once the floodgates opened, so to speak, she would be like a faucet running until she finished. Not so!

I’ve learned that baby pee is *not* sulfuric acid. It’s much less noxious to have a bit of pee on my jeans than when she spits up on me, to be honest. Poop misses (when they do happen) are almost always in a diaper, but if she were to poop while playing, I would just use some of the same enzyme cleaner I use to clean up when my dog throws up. I know EC moms who have places in their homes (nice living rooms with fancy rugs) where baby has to be in a diaper, but the baby-friendly areas (like a playroom) are fine for “nakey-butts”.

Obviously, because DD cannot yet get herself to the potty, the potential for misses will last for many more months, probably close to a year (she's six months now). But, on the flip side, I am continually improving in my ability to respond to her signals, so the miss frequency should go down over time, too.

<<I also have a question. How do you do this at night? If you are sleeping, how do you know when they need to go to the bathroom? >>

DD was staying dry all night when we started ECing in mid-June. That’s part of how I became an ECer – it seemed strange to me that she would wake up in a dry diaper, and I would wait a few minutes for her to wet it, then I would change it. I remember thinking that since I knew she was going to go soon, why did I have to wait until she wet the diaper?

Fairly soon after we started, I began putting her to bed (we have a co-sleeper beside the bed) w/o a diaper at all, just in a t-shirt or cut-off onesie (as you might imagine, I am not a fan of crotch snaps or other complicated clothes!). She slept through the night from about 9pm to 6:30am or so, waking for about 10 minutes to nurse around 4am (staying dry all night – no, this is not the norm for EC kids, I was just lucky). This worked well for a couple of months, but then DD had a growth spurt, and was waking to nurse multiple times a night and started peeing at night again. It's also colder now, so we put her to bed in a cloth diaper (as well as leggings/socks and something on top).

When she wakes at night, I first try to see if she'll take the pacifier and go back to sleep. If that doesn't work, I nurse her and then see if she needs to pee. I have a Rubbermaid basin with a cloth diaper at the bottom on the floor next to the co-sleeper. It's pretty simple to remove her diaper and hold her over it while I'm in bed. I cue her, and if she needs to, she pees. I had been taking her to the bathroom down the hall, but she really objected to the bright lights and movement, and it would take a lot longer for her to fall asleep afterwards. (Someone at my local EC group suggested the basin solution.) In the morning, I just pop the wet dipe in the diaper pail.

<<I'm up all night BF, I can't imagine up all night watching for them to poo. Although my girls usually poo'ed immediately after nursing at night time.>>

If someone was interested in ECing and mentioned this to me in that context, I might suggest they try the night pottying like I described above. If your child has some sort of elimination pattern you're aware of, you can start offering the pee/poop opportunity then. If nothing happens, then you just put baby back to sleep as usual.

There are plenty of EC parents who don't EC at night, or at least not at the start. There have also been numerous occasions when I have been so tired that I didn't try to potty her, I just put her back to sleep after nursing and crossed my fingers. Of course, I was awakened an hour or two later to a very wet diaper, so I had to get up anyway to change it. But, yeah, nighttimes can be pretty tough sometimes (whether you EC or not). I will say that I've noticed that DD goes back to sleep more easily if she pees, and she usually sleeps pretty well afterwards.

kimberley replied: thanks for the info! it sounds interesting but the extra work is intimidating.. especially when i have 3 other kids at home and have trouble reading cues or anything on 3hrs of sleep a day lol. i applaud that you and others are able to do this.

moped replied:
I agree and I only have 1 child - all the power in the world!!!!!!

Very interesting topic!

TANNER'S MOM replied: Wow... that is amazing.

It sounds like alot of work too. You are more dedicated than I could be in my life style.

But one thing I realize..is..she is not really potty trained. She doesn't need a potty.. she goes where ever you take her.. Is it a trained thing.. is it really about her being diaper free on her own.. or is it more about you watching close enough to watch cues and "catch" her before she goes?

Or do you feel she knows when she had to go.. and there for waits for you?

My daughter was potty trained early.. fully around 15 16 months I think.. she walked early, talked early.. and potty trained early. But still had a few accidents.

Do you feel she knows when there is a miss other than being wet.. there is no punishment for misses or wetness is there.. no change in voice or anything otherwise different? And as children grow older.. do they get acceptance and punishment for this.. I mean at 1 year I wonder if they is a voice reward and a voice punishment.. you know what I mean??

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Interesting questions, Mel!

TeagansMom609 replied: Not trying to sound snooty or anything but...whats the point of potty training so early? Also, who came up with this idea? A parent or a Dr.?

coasterqueen replied:
Actually EC is done in third world countries from what my understanding was when I researched it long ago. They can't afford diapers in certain places and so EC is about all they can do. Think about it, you see a lot of them naked or in rags and you know they just don't go to the bathroom everywhere and anywhere.

You'd be amazed at the 'traditions' that come from these countries that we later take on. Just like breastfeeding, it's so much more natural in other cultures because they can't afford formula. I'm not one for EC, but the reason I think it's not accepted and not known or done in this country is because we are so pampered to the point that we don't NEED to do these things. People use formula because it would be easier to do than try to breastfeed (in most cases) and same goes for diapers. I know I use them because they would be easier than the alternative.

i think EC'ers HAVE something when it comes to the whole issue, it's just not one I want to take on personally. I actually kinda make myself sick for saying that, but that's a whole other story.

ChristineBabb replied:
Yes, we certainly have been Pampered (and Huggie-d and Luv-ed) in this country. So much so that the teens in the nursery at the church had never even seen a cloth diaper until they met DD.

ChristineBabb replied:
I know it sounds like a lot of work, but really it's just a different kind of work. Although I'm not poop-phobic, I'm not out looking for close encounters with the stuff, either - for every poop that goes directly into the toilet, I have one less cloth diaper to scrape and rinse (not to mention wiping poop out of various and sundry crevices on DD!). Many ECed babies do end up toilet independent earlier than they would with traditional potty training, so there's the potential for many months fewer diaper changes down the road (a whole LOT less work).

EC can be adapted to a wide variety of family situations/lifestyles. Some folks are part-time ECers, and use diaper backup when a child is in daycare, or at particular times of the day (or night), and so on. I don't think of myself as particularly dedicated (I am really a pretty lazy mom a lot of the time!).

<<But one thing I realize..is..she is not really potty trained. She doesn't need a potty.. she goes where ever you take her.. Is it a trained thing.. is it really about her being diaper free on her own.. or is it more about you watching close enough to watch cues and "catch" her before she goes?>>

I can't emphasize enough that EC is NOT potty training. And Bea is absolutely not "potty trained", which I believe means a child who can reliably (nearly all of the time) recognize when he/she needs to eliminate, can get to the bathroom, undress enough to sit on/stand at the toilet and then pee/poop in it. But she is learning that pee and poop are supposed to go into the potty/toilet, and she is learning that I am there to help her do that until she is physically mature enough to do it herself.

Sometimes I think the "diaper free" label puts the emphasis on something that is a side effect of the elimination communication process (toilet independence), instead of on the communication process itself. Particularly when that is the main thing played up by the media reports.

<<Do you feel she knows when there is a miss other than being wet.. there is no punishment for misses or wetness is there.. no change in voice or anything otherwise different? And as children grow older.. do they get acceptance and punishment for this.. I mean at 1 year I wonder if they is a voice reward and a voice punishment.. you know what I mean??>>

EC is TOTALLY non-coercive (if a parent is pressuring a child to perform, it is NOT EC!). It's also something that parents don't generally make a big deal about, either positively or negatively. I would compare it to feeding my child. I was very encouraging when we first introduced solids (lots of smiles and silliness and "What a big girl you are!"), but now it's just a normal, everyday, no-big-deal thing. Just like I don't make a big deal of every bite my child takes, I don't get all excited when she pees or poops in the potty. It's become that ordinary for us. (I will totally admit that the first catch was the coolest thing in the world to me, and the look on Bea's face as she saw herself peeing was priceless. Sort of "So THAT'S what that feeling is!" It was neat to see her start to make the connection with what she was seeing and the sensation of peeing.)

I tend to laugh about the misses, too. (I am generally pretty laid back about most things.) I try not to put her in a situation where I might overreact if a miss occurs. Usually I'll just say, "ooops!" or "Let's get you out of this wet diaper and into a dry one." Sometime I apologize when I miss her signal or wait just a bit too long to respond, but again, it's very low-key, just acknowledging it, then we clean up/change clothes and get on with whatever we were doing before.

ChristineBabb replied:
The point, for us, of ECing is that it is one more way to communicate with my child, and to respond to her elimination needs. Just as I want to understand and respond to her when she is hungry, tired, ill or uncomfortable.

Another point is that by ECing, I am not diaper training my child, then having to train her to use the toilet later (and at a time when little children are not particularly amenable to change anyway). It's also easier on the environment and my wallet. There are a whole range of benefits, and not a lot of downsides - for us, in our particular situation.

I'm not doing it so she will be "potty trained" before the other kids on the block. If another mom decides to initiate potty training at 15-16 months and the kid's toilet independent a month later, yay! And if another waits until the child initiates at 33 months (as I did with my son) and gets the same result, good for her.

As far as the idea, yup, it's nothing new. It's the way humans have met infants elimination needs for thousands of years, way before there were doctors and experts and diaper companies and all the zillions of other influences on parenting in Western society. I was surprised to learn that half the world's population is toilet independent by one year old. Surely American babies are not *that* physiologically different from Asian or African or Indian babies? (Actually, African babies tend to reach certain developmental milestones earlier that Western infants - I think the theory is that without the bulk of a diaper between their legs, they are able to roll over/sit up/etc. sooner. Makes sense to me.)

I need to get to bed, but I'll put one last thing out there for folks to think about ('cause I've been thinking about it since I heard the NPR Here and Now show this afternoon). If you accept the premise that a newborn has zero bladder/bowel control, and that a 2 1/2 or 3 year old can have full control, does it make sense to say that a six month old has NO voluntary bladder/bowel control? Surely it develops over time from birth, no? The 2 1/2 year old doesn't develop all their control all at once, does s/he? (OK, I'm starting to ramble...I just get annoyed by pediatricians who claim that eighteen month olds cannot control their bowels, or know when they are wet...)

holley79 replied: This has been a very interesting topic. The weblink that was added in an earlier post by Christine has been quite interesting. I started talking to a friend of mine that lives in Africa and she has used this technique with all three of her children. She is a little more "high" society then some but it was a technique used by her parents and grandparents. It's not just mom that looks for the "signs" dads get involved also.

It is very true though. Our society has made anything that is "different" wrong. I'm always open to new suggestions and ideas and I enjoy reading about different parenting styles. Doesn't mean that I will do the same as my friend across the "pond" but it is interesting to see this pop up and it has been practiced for 1000s of years.

I have to say, kudos to you.

ChristineBabb replied:
Absolutely - my DH is totally supportive of EC, and does it too. In some ways he's a better at it than I am - when he's with her, he's WITH her, while I often am distracted by work, or doing something around the house, or the phone or the dog...

Our Lil' Family replied: Ok, so I had to try this.

Just about every night lately during his bath Thomas goes to the bathroom. I suspect it's because he's relaxed and he's just had dinner. I've come to expect it now and know what follows when he makes his own bubbles! So tonight I decided that I'd rush him over to the toilet and let him take care of business in there....and it worked! He peed and pooped in the toilet! DH was so impressed that I thought to do that (thank you my PC friends!! )

That being said, I don't think I could do it all of the time. The only way I know ahead of time that he's about to go is from seeing his bubbles in the tub...if he was dressed I wouldn't be able to tell. The cues that I notice during the day are his squinched up face and severe concentration, and by then it's too late, he's halfway done!

Anyway, I tried it....beats cleaning the bath tub every night!

ChristineBabb replied:
Lots of people EC part time -- some begin just like you, with a "sure thing", and gradually (sometimes after MONTHS of occasional catches w/ diaper backup the rest of the time) they find that things start to "click" and they do it more frequently. But even if that was your first and last attempt, I applaud you for trying at all. I think the more people who have some sort of familiarity with it, the more likely EC will eventually be accepted as something ordinary (if not for everyone), rather than some sort of bizarre notion.