I don't know if this is a vent or a plea for help

coasterqueen wrote: I have so had it with Kylie. I just don't know what to do with her anymore and I've about lost my bananas! I'm sure it's just the age but I SEE well mannered kids her age so I know it's possible for her to be that way as well.

She has no manners whatsoever. She demands everything instead of asking and saying please and thank you. She used to say please and thank you all the time on her own accord, not now. I will admit this might partly be my fault because I'll ask something of her and not always say please. I'm working on correcting that situation now. The problem is she's being this way to not just her parents but to her family and friends.

If she doesn't like something I've asked of her or told her to do she clinches her fists, shakes them and goes "uhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhh", shaking her head as well. Where she got that I don't know. Then she stomps to her bedroom and SLAMS the door.

She's gotten to the point where she just won't listen to us anymore as well. She just looks at me with the look like "uh, sorry lady, I'll do whatever I want". And then there are times when she knows not to do something, she'll look right at me, act like she's going to do it, looking at me at the same time like she's testing me.

She likes to make concoctions (sp?) with her food at the dinner table, most times spilling everything all over the place. She puts her feet on the table and deliberately does it when I ask her not to.

This morning DH, Megan and I were asleep in bed. I had just finished nursing Megan and she rolled over to sleep. Kylie came in around 5:30 am, like usual, and climbed into bed with us. I asked her to be quiet because Megan was sleeping. She cuddled up to Megan and I reminded her to be careful and quiet so she didn't wake her sister up. So what does she do? She grabs her sister by the face and told me she wanted Megan to see her face! Instantly Megan woke up screaming. I asked Kylie again to be nice and quiet so we could all just lay there and be calm. She wouldn't stop so I got out of bed and took a shower. DH was peeved because I left him with both girls and he didn't get to sleep anymore. I was just so angry because I try to start off the day on a good note without having to yell at her or get upset or anything and she immediately starts out the day on a wrong note for me.

I know that a child picks up on their parents actions and mimicks them, so I know I'm partly to blame and am trying to correct my faults. I also know that her behavior isn't mainly due to having a sibling in the house because she acted this way before I was even pg with Megan, she's just choosing to annoy the crud out of her sister as well now.

I swore I'd never spank my children because I had the tar beat out of me as a kid with about any object you could imagine. I have to admit that every time I have an encounter with her and she chooses not to listen I am a hand away from spanking her. I actually fear this because I NEVER want to spank her but each encounter puts me closer to doing so. And when I say spank I don't mean beat, I mean a swat on the behind. I hate that I even have these feelings.

I see so much of myself in Kylie as much as I am so much like my father. The cycle is just going to repeat itself. She's going to be a holy terror like I am if her and I don't learn to work with each other. Man! And she's only going to be THREE! Sigh.

I'll admit I've yelled at Kylie before when she just pushes me over the edge. The sad thing about it is that Kylie has even asked me "mommy, why do you yell at me?" or "mommy, will you not yell at me anymore". This makes me so sad and I know many of you will think I'm a bad mother because my child has had to say this to me. I don't intentionally yell at her, it's something my dad did to me and I just can't control it no matter how hard I try. Although I really honestly do try and it only happens when she's just gone too far and pushed my buttons. Which these days it's much harder to push my buttons than it was a few years ago, so I'm proud I've come this far and am a work in progress.

I'm at a loss of what to do. Every day it's a battle with her. Every day she spends every waking moment with us whining and crying. Every day I have to ask her not to do something and she defies me. Every day she tests me. Is it just this age? Seriously is it OR am I in for a long long time of battles with her. I don't want her and my relationship to end up like my relationship with my parents. That would literally devastate me.

Ryan is having all the same issues with her but he doesn't yell at her. Only has made 1 or 2 times. She smarts off to us like crazy too. She'll tell us she'll do it when she's ready to do it, etc.

Why does this have to be so hard. Why can't we have years of parenting classes before we parent a child? I feel like I've already done so much damage to her and she's not even 3 yet. You know that saying "well I screwed up with the first one so I'm trying to do right with the second"? Well that's what happened with my parents and that's what they tried to do. I don't want that to be the case here.

Sorry, just needed to vent. Am I alone? I mean I know many of you post about bad days you have with your children and they might act like this at times but does anyone have one who acts like this ALL the time? Seriously! I mean Kylie may have 1 good day to every 4 bad days if I'm lucky. No joke.

I want so badly to positive parent but it's not working. We tried everything in the beginning to positive parent. You know redirection, positive reinforcement, no time-outs, this and that but NONE and I mean NONE of it worked. I tried ignoring and just being patient, NONE of it worked. So then we went to time-outs, etc - it worked for a few days then that's it. The only thing I see that 'may' work is spanking. I know when I got the tar beat out of me I behaved at least for a few days/weeks. BUT I don't want that for Kylie and won't.

I'm just so frustrated!

Boys r us replied: Ohhh Karen!! Big hugs to you woman!!
Listen, part of it is the age, part of it is that she has a new sibling and yes maybe part of it is mimiking your actions or evenher sitters actions and probably the other part is genetic But you can't beat yourself up over it!
Braedon got TOTALLY out of control about 6 mnths ago and I said, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! THIS IS GOING TO STOP!

From now on, everytime he smarts off or tells me no or screams or doesn't listen, he goes to the time out chair in the corner. I have had to force myself to be consistent even when it isn't convenient for me to even fool with it.
I can't tell you the difference consistent discipline has made in that child's life. The funny thing is, if you had asked me 6 mnths ago if I was stern/strict..whatever with him and tried to make him mind, I would have said yes..looking back now and comparing the thens with the nows..I know I wasn't!

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Yikes. Sounds like my son.

I don’t beat my kids. However, when they`re being REALLY bad, I put them in a time-out. When the time out does nothing, I take away a favorite toy until they show me that they can behave. And if they`re STILL not behaving – yes, I will swat them on the butt. Not hard, and definitely not in anger – but still hard enough to show that I am serious, and although it`s not hard enough to actually hurt, it`s enough to INSULT.

I`m a yeller. I yell ALL THE TIME. And when I`m annoyed, it shows. I realize it more now that he kids mimick me – like if I ask Zach to do something, he rolls his eyes, sighs, and tells me ‘in a minute, I’m busy right now’.

I know he gets it from me – because only DH and I talk to him in english – noone else around here seems to know how to speak English.

He also does the ‘uuuuuuuuuuurggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh’ thing and stomps away. I didn`t think I did it – and I asked DH to point it out to me if I ever did. It didn’t even take a whole weekend for him to be able to point it out to me 3 times. Never noticed I did this… lol

Zach has resorted to shrieking now too. If I ask something of him and he doesn`t want to do it – he shrieks that he doesn`t want to, and that he doesn`t like me anymore. That he wants Daddy. It`s very frustrating…. Especially because I don`t know where he gets it from.

I think that the testing is partly the age – what kid doesn`t test the parents at some point? I have a sticker chart now wth the kids – for good behaviour, they get a sticker on the chart. For bad behaviour, they get a big black X on their chart. When the stickers reach the end of a line, they can have a reward. If the Xs reach the end of the line, I don`t know what will happen yet – because it hasn`t yet. But it will probably be losing a toy for a day or something.

What I`ve found works is to show that the threats aren`t empty. If I tell Zach that the next time he does ‘x’, he will lose a toy for a certain amount of time – when he does it next, he loses the toy, and I don`t give it back until the appointed time is up. I tell him that the NEXT time, he will get a swat on his butt. He does it again, he gets a swat. That will usually do it for him, and I don`t have a problem with that for another week or so. lol!

I found that if I made threast I wasn`t going to keep – like ‘we’re going to go home and you`re going to take a nap’ when we`re in the middle of groceries, he doesn`t listen as well the next time as he does when we actually LEAVE and go home and make him take a nap. Shows him we mean business…. And he doesn`t fool with it the next time.

You`re not alone… definitely not. There are days where if I could send him back to maker, I would.

Kaitlin'smom replied: first off second

oh sheesh sounds like she is a difficult child. I know its not easy. I admit I yelled at Kait this moring when she decided to throw a fit over something so stupid, instead of telling or asking she just screamed sat down and cried, I lost it. She very quicly said she was sorry, I did to and we talked I know this does not help you but I wanted to let you know we all do it some time or another. I to am not a fan of spanking, my sitter does HER childeren and repects me not to mine. I will tell you this though, if she ever gets that bad I might at least threaton her with a spanking since she does know what it means. My sitter went though the same thing with her daughter and her best friend told her she need to get a handle of her NOW and spanking was the only thing that worked, and its usually 1-3 swats with a spanking spoon. She is pretty well behaved to day but she still has her moments. oh and they dont spank in public, they tell them in a firm voice you will get a spanking when we get home and they follow through. I know spanking is not for everyone and like I said I am not a fan but in somecases you have no other option even supernanny's stuff might not work. You have to do whats right for your family and you both need to agree and both need to be the bad guy.

and last

I hope you can find something that works for you, and fast.

oh I have even taken things away from her for short periods of times, something she LOVES, boy that can get an appoligy pretty fast, then we talk about why she is sorry.

parenting is hard, and from what I am getting its not going to get any easier oy

amynicole21 replied: I'm hoping it's the age because we go through this with Sophia every day as well. I hate that I'm waiting for her to grow out of it and can't just enjoy her toddler years like I want to. I am trying to be consistant and trust that it will begin to work at some point. I'll admit that I've wanted to spank Sophia so many times that I'm surprised I haven't yet. Well, there was one incident where I smacked her on the back of the head after she hit me, then I went and cried for an hour.

It's got to end soon.

luvbug00 replied: I'm sorry that your having a tough time and I know you are not a spanking mommy and I wasn't either until Mya was doing exactly what DD is doing. then the hand came out and the additude stopped. Now this is only after talking and talking and talking didn't work. I hope it workd out for you lot's of your way!!

moped replied: I don't have a child that age, but I have heard very similar stuff from both sisters............I am sorry you are having a hard time with her, but I do think if you stick to your guns she will improve. There are consequences for every action, and when she realizes that she will behave, I know she will.

We are always here to listen.............................it will all get better. When she is a teenager you will look back and wish for these days back.

kit_kats_mom replied: I'm guessing it's the age too. K's been quite the little monster lately too. We rarely have a whole day go by without some transgression. I think they are just testing the rules and limits. You know? "Mommy said not to jump off of the couch. She didnt' say anything about the bookcases. Let's try that and see what happens. "

When I get to the point you are now, I try to check into Dr. Sears' site and read up on ways to control myself and ways to help her be a better person. It usually calms me down a bit and reminds me that a)K is a normal toddler doing what normal toddlers do and b ) I have to take some (but not all) of the blame and it may be time to try a different approach.

Try to set some limits and be consistant. If she slams her door. Put a lock on it and leave her in there for a few minutes and remove all fun things from her room.
if she acts up at dinner, make her leave the table and go to her room. Not for a time out just explain that she's interrupting your dining experience and that you wont' tolerate it. before any potentially volitile situation, tell her exactly what is expected and tell her what will happen if the rules are broken. Then have her repeat it back to you. This has worked wonders with K.

The only thing that K does that Kylie doesn't is say please and thank you. Of course she usually whines when she says it so it's not all that much better. "I want my juice now please". We say it all the time though so that's just a learned response I guess.

We also try to point out her good behaviour. For example, in the above situation, I usually say "good job saying please. now, please ask again in a normal voice so I can hear you".

I'm sorry you are having a rough time of it right now. With all that's going on in your world right now I would guess you are doing a lot to keep sane. It's normal to question things and how they will impact her future.

Finally, I'd like to reccomend "hidden Messages" by elizabeth pantley. It's a good book, easy read, that I love. I read all of the lessons and then I ranked them in order of how important they were to our family. I've been trying to master one lesson before moving on to the next. It's amazing how re-phrasing something can cause the desired effects.

NummyMommy replied: Awww... you arent a bad mom!! If moms were bad for yelling at their kids then all moms since the beginning of time would be bad moms! Even the most delicate and God fearing woman I ever met admitted to me she yelled at her kids sometimes....you love her and you care about her and you want to be the best mom you can be....that makes you a great mom! The kind of behavior you described is prefectly normal for her age its just not a "good" normal (well actually you can look at her assertiveness as a good thing) I think what you guys have is a personality clash....its not uncommon and its usually caused by the child being a lot like the parent. I have the same situation with my second son.....hes sooo much like me. We are always on each others nerves but the older he gets the easier it gets because I am now able to explain things to him. It was really hard when he was a 2 year old because he (obviously) couldnt be reasoned with. Kids that age just kinda react...its a cause and effect world for them. They love trying to find out if they can change the effect too. (If I whine will I get that ice cream or does "No" mean no.) Some kids are just really difficult to raise no matter what parenting technique you use and some kids are good natured and kind no matter what they go through. I personally think its about a 1/3 genetics and 1/3 enviorment and 1/3 mystery that determines personality. Just remember that you're human too...so youre going to make mistakes but that doesnt mean you've scarred her for life. I think we all feel like "I'm going to do it right...I'm going to be better then my parents/my friends/my neighbors" and then when we make mistakes we think we failed. The reality is you are already a hundred times better then your parents were no matter how bad you feel sometimes. If you are still struggling with the abuse you suffered then there is help available. But your decision to parent differently already shows that you are a loving committed parent and your children are going to be just wonderful adults.

A&A'smommy replied: OKay Karen it sounds like two things age and she sounds strong willed too if you say she has been doing this for a long time it may not JUST be age. I was a strong willed child and I have listened to my mother and what she did (she was telling someone else) spanking BUT considering you come from a household of anger and abuse spanking probably wouldn't be a good idea unless you KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that you could control yourself. I would definitly check out dr sears site its full of WONDERFUL information when I was living with My MIL seeing the way they beat Jake and Savannah made me want to read up on self control and other forms of disipline. I grew up KNOW that my parents disciplined me because they loved me, which included spankings and they would ALWAYS tell me that they loved me before and after, they also use to WAIT until they weren't angry anymore to spank so it wouldn't be out of anger. if you want (and I mean WANT) to know more please pm me I know how to find out more better information on this stuff.

I have much better info but I don't want to be bashed for my beliefs!

(((((BIG HUGS))))) it will get better Karen!

TANNER'S MOM replied: Oh Karen... I just want you to know that we all loose it sometimes. I know we shouldn't and we feel bad afterward. I wish I was a perfect Mom.. I wish I had the right answer but I don't.

I have yelled at my kids, I have spanked them. I have let them push me too far...I am the adult acting worse than the children.

But I want you to know that she is loves her mommy and she is testing her limits. Trying to figure out how far she can push you. You have work, a new baby, a 2-3yr old...she is a smart girl and trying to find her place... The whole negative attention thing.

My only advice for u is..whatever means of punshiment I would be very consistent.. Do the same thing always. You and your DH both have to be on the same page always..

You are in my thoughts... She will out grow it. I think maybe you need to start working w/ Kylie on self control.. talk about her emotions and how to act when we feel a certain way. Role play.. When kids are her age they have no control over there actions unless given a way to vent too.. Give her healthy ways to vent. Maybe a dry erase board on the fridge low enough she can use it... Kylie when you are mad and have BIG emotions..instead of shaking your fist and stomping go to the board and draw it so Mommy can see your emotions???

I don't know I am just throwing stuff out there.

I am thinking of you girl.

DansMom replied: Many hugs, Karen! I know how bad parenting can repeat itself too. My mom flew into scary rages, screaming and slamming things/throwing things, at totally unexpected times; and I've reached just short of that point a few times, much to my own horror! Like you, I don't want my child to have to have the feelings about me that I had about mom growing up. In my case, it was that feeling of walking on eggshells all the time, not being sure if the adults would fly off the handle or be calm that day.

Kylie has a strong personality, AND she's two years old, AND she has a new sibling. Triple whammy! You need to forgive your own mistakes, parenting and otherwise, and this will help you forgive her and work with her. Take each hour as a new hour, a new chance to do it right.

kimberley replied: i am sorry you are dealing with so much i think everyone has summed it all up. she is spirited and she is 3yo. just tag off when you can and hang in there. it does get better.. we went thru this with James. you and DH need to stay on the same side tho or she will divide and conquer

My2Beauties replied: I think everyone said exactly what I wanted to say - you got some great advice hon! Good luck to you!

julesmom replied: Great advice.

I have to say, from my experience, 3 is WORSE then 2! Everyone says, "Oh, the terrible two's". 2 is nothing, wait till 3! Get thru 3 and 4 is much easier, like a whole different kid.

Mommy2BAK replied:

Karen, I am sorry that I don't have any experience with that age yet, but I still wanted you to know that I read what you wrote and I can tell you are going through a hard time with her right now. I hope that things get better for both of you soon. My dad also "spanked" me although I would hardly call what he did a spanking. And I also don't ever want to spank Blakely so I can relate to you on that.

coasterqueen replied:
If this is true I'll NEVER make it to 4.

coasterqueen replied: Thank all of you for your WONDERFUL advice and for lending me your ears!!!!!!!!!!!! I think more than anything I needed to get that off my chest, I felt much better after posting.

I remained calm tonight, reiterated warnings/punishments to her tonight, did my own please and thank yous, asked instead of told and tonight seemed to go much much better. Now if every day could go like this we'd be grand! Course I realized that IF I could just keep my cool she kept her cool (for the most part). Why is it so hard to do this? LOL. Anyways she still had her moments tonight but they were much better. I only had to raise my voice once but it was because we asked her SEVERAL times, she wouldn't listen (to my low tone voice) so I raised my voice and she stopped. Wasn't really yelling.

Again, thanks so much.

Mommy2BAK replied:
Sounds like you had a much better night, I am glad!

Next time whenever you are feeling frusterated just come here and we will all be here to listen . You are doing a WONDERFUL job at parenting!

A&A'smommy replied: I'm SOO glad to hear that you had a better night!!! I hope the days to come are just as easy!!

b&bsmom replied: I want to tell you been there and hang in there. My dd is now six and we still have those issues. She was always polite and used her manners and now it is only when we are out or she is somewhere else. My first post to this board was what to do with her.

I have found that you must be consistent and make punishments fit the crime. You can't take away a trip for ice cream when she misbehaves in your bed in the morning. However , an example would be maybe at dinner if she makes a mess with her plate either have her clean it up or tell her dinner is over.

I am also a firm believer in warnings. You need to let her know before something happens to give her a chance to cooperate. If you are consistent and follow thru it should help.

I have worked in daycare since I was a teen and I have been a nanny since I had my own children, I used to be a teacher of 2 and a half year olds, it is a mix of things. It is also girls I think. My ds does his fits in different ways he will be 2 in Sept. If he acts up basically I take him to his room to regroup. He comes out on his own and usually is fine. Also if he is acting up at night I take away his strawberry milk before bed. That works well also.

If you would like feel free to pm me I hope this has helped a little. You are doing a great job and I know you will figure things out. Hang in there.

MommyToAshley replied: Karen,
I am sorry you are having such a rough time, but glad you had a better evening. Sometimes it just helps to vent, and I am sure that made you feel better to get all that out, and Kylie probably picked up on your good mood tonight.

I agree with what everyone said about discipline and being consistent. I have a couple of additional suggestions that work with Ashley... I'll give them to you and they may or may not work with Kylie.

First of all, I have noticed that Ashley is very easily influenced by other kids. The first two years, she was an angel but she wasn't around other kids. I wanted her to have the social interaction with kids her own age, so I had to seek out playmates for her. And, I noticed that she picks up their bad habits right along with their good habits. So, we had to work on "while so and so may scream, we don't scream in the house" and then explain why. Or while so and so may hit or take toys away, we do not hit, etc. So, I would recommend making sure that your daycare provider is on the same page as you and doesn't let Kylie get away with stuff that you don't. Since she is with her for a significant part of the day, I think it's important that not only you and your DH are on the same page, but your dcp is too.

Next, I will admit that my Mom used to do a few things when she watched my sisters kids that drove me absolutely batty. I swore I would never do them, but I found out that they work.

The first one being "I don't understand you when you talk that way" .... That's what Ashey hears when she demands something. She has to ask politely if she wants something and I don't give it to her until she does. She's pretty good with the manners though, and I probably hear more reminders from her that I need to say please and thank you than the other way around.

The second thing my Mom did was the counting to 3. I don't believe in spanking either, and don't like to yell, but time outs only seemed to be working some of the time. Then, I figured out that timeouts weren't working because they were a punishment for what she had already done rather than a consequence she was informed about before she did it. So, I will ask her to do something and if she doesn't, I inform her that if she doesn't do it by the time I count to 3 then she is going to time out. I never get past 2. She knows there is a consquence now if she does't behave a certain way.

Like I said, these work for Ashley but they may not work for every child. But, I thought I would give you the suggestions. You have helped me in so many ways, especially when it came to bf. If one of these things works then it will feel great to have returned the favor.

And, lastly, you are not a bad Mom. You are one of the most dedicated parents I know. You have a lot on your plate, I couldn't imagine taking care of a baby on top of a toddler and a career. Kylie just seems like a strong-willed child and you may just have to keep trying to find what works for you. Hang in there, it will work out. And, we're always here to support you.

CantWait replied: Hugs!! I know they can be so difficult sometimes. Anthony really knows how to push my buttons, and he's only two. He hates to listen, and hates to do things YOUR way. He's nothing like Robbie was when he was younger (well mannered, didn't get into anything, was always good in public, not the typical two year old I guess). Don't feel bad. I have tendencies to lose my patience after warnings of don't do that, or if you do that this will happen (at both kids), either yelling at them or when putting in the corner or taking things away, or being put in the naughty chair doesn't work, I have swatted them on the butt. Sometimes it's just so hard not to.
Just know you're not the only one, and things will get better.

3_call_me_mama replied: Hugs Karen.
I know exactally how you feel, I have her twin here in VT. Honestly. Somedays, I dread even waking up becasue I know Cameron will act TERRIBLY! I hate it. I hate to even think about going out in public with him most times. I yell and holler and I hate myself for it. I have spanked him twice, and it doesn't help. He jsut cries and says why did you hit me. And says "don't holler at me mom, I love you". Then I feel liek total dirt, and hate myself even more. I can't stand to be around him sometimes and Dennsi is at wits end too. I jsut CANNOT take it anymore.
I don't know what to do or have any advice to offer I just wanted to let you know you weren't alone. I cannot wait for preschool to start, causeI get 5 hours a week free of him. Sounds terrible doesn't it:( But sometimes I SOOO WISH I could have more time out of my house. without children.ALONE. Sorry Didn't mean to steal your post:(
But you are not alone adn hopefully they will begin to outgrown whatever they have and their siblings will not catch it:( Cause I know i can't do it again in 2 years:(

coasterqueen replied:
Hugs to you too Carrie. No, I don't think you sound awful at all! Even though I would LOVE LOVE to SAH with my kids I know Kylie would drive me straight to the front door of a funny farm. So kudos to you for dealing with it all day. Let's hope they both get better for our sanity sakes. I've heard that if they were terrible in the 2's then they will be better in their 3's. A girl can wish.

3_call_me_mama replied:
DITTO:) Here's hoping that 3 is WAYYYYY better than 2!!

angelhair replied: karen i just wanted to say that I do not think you are a bad mother in any way!!! I have yelled at my three year old when i cant take it anymore. i have had to say i am sorry to him more times then i can count. usually i count to three and he knows i mean business. my son has screamed stomped his feet so your child believe me is not the only one to have a tantrum. i send him to his room with no toys, tv or anything until he calms down. kids contantly push to the limits to see what they can get away with. I say this because i wanted to let you know that you are not alone and defentely not a bad mother love dee

coasterqueen replied:
Thank you Dee.