I hope this get investigated - * war in iraq news*

luvbug00 wrote:
This kind of stuff really angers me. there is no reason for thease things to happen. I hope it is investigated and the truth reveled wither it was the troops fault or not. Can't say i'm too thrilled with the headline,kinda jumping the gun of you ask me. ( no pun intended)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

holley79 replied: I think it's sad the pregnant woman was killed but that is all I'm going to say.

jacobsmama replied: that is just terrible

redchief replied: Male Iraqi driver barrels into a clearly marked prohibition zone, fails to follow orders to halt and the security forces open fire. His cousin, who happens to be a pregnant woman, is killed in the gunfire.

Tell me... What did the troops do wrong here? It's terrible to hear that a pregnant woman was killed, but our troops safety is paramount and the driver, regardless of his intentions, was the one responsible for his cousin's death, not the troops.

mckayleesmom replied: Well, after watching Baghdad ER the other day...Im going to say that the driver of that car is full of it if he really thinks that people are going to believe that he wasn't warned......I watched that show and I was on pins and needles just watching them. These guys do their pt with their guns...drive up and down all the roads and stop if there is so much as a bag in the middle of the road. I find it hard to believe that a car speeding towards them wouldn't have gotten a warning..let alone NOT be shot at. Im sorry this happened to this woman and that poor baby, but I find it hard to believe that they weren't warned.

Also I believe it mentioned in the movie that all the roads leading up to the hospitals as well as military hospitals are heavily patrolled to protect the patients, so he was probably warned.

This is a country that has men and woman strapping themselves with bombs, car bombs going off all the time, ied's going off when they walk by.....Do you really think they were going to take a car speeding towards them lightly? I doubt it, I probably would have shot too.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: This is a prime example of the disgusting lengths that our media will go to for a headline. I am sure with all the uproar about Marines being charged with murder(I am not defending any such actions) this is yet another sad attempt to discredit and undermind the job the brave men and women of our country are doing in Iraq. If anyone believes that in the climate of that country this man was 'unwarned' then I have some ocean front property in Arizona I would love to offer them! These poor soldiers are dealing with car bombs and booby traps everyday! They are being slaughtered by an invisible and cowardly enemy that will not show it's face but is reeking havoc none the less. We in this nation have been able to go back to a relatively normal life since 9-11-Most here do not live in constant fear of suicide bombings,roadside bombings,and targeted shootings. Our soldiers do!!! I have a gun in my home to defend my family and myself-I know how to use it and if anyone ever threatened my life or the life of my loved ones I would use it! These men at this checkpoint were doing nothing more than I am willing to do to defend my own life! The headline should read Soldiers able to thawart possible car attack BUT I guess that just wouldn't get as many readers......

luvmykids replied:
Well said.

CantWait replied: I dont think there's a need for an investigation. There are clear boundaries that troops whether Canadian or American on any mission post to let passerbyers know that they are not to a) try to pass a convoy or get to close to one, or they will be shot at. These boundaries are in place to protect our soldiers.

CantWait replied:
I just read your reply after mine, thank you I'm glad I'm not the only one with this opinion. Maybe this is just because my dh is in the military and I know the code.

jacobsmama replied: I think you all have great perspectives on this and I agree with others they are just doing what they are suppose to be but sad that a woman got shot..

amynicole21 replied: My only question is how two women were killed when they say they were just trying to disable the vehicle? I hope it is THOROUGHLY investigated and the soldiers are found innocent. Such a horrible situation.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I don't have any idea if the same thing happened in this case but here, not too long ago, there was a man that the police were trying to pull over. They got him stopped and when the officers approached the vehicle the driver tried to ram them. They fired at the engine block to 'disable the car' 3 bullets traveled through the engine into the car and killed the man driving. Our soldiers are shooting with high powered weapons so the same thing is possible here-frankly I would not blame them if a car was coming at them what they aimed at to stop it! One would not have time to think of anything except-Remove this threat! The fact that this story is being reported as a possible wrong doing by the military is sad to me-not the fact that the lives of some of our men were spared! If this had happened here-If a car was barreling toward a crowd of people in our country and a police officer or a military person (or here someone with a gun ) had shot to stop the car BUT saved the lives of the people being driven towards-I have no doubt they would be proclaimed a hero....why is it any different for our men and women that are litterly dying to protect Iraq?

amynicole21 replied: The media is reporting it because people are rioting in Iraq over this and another story where multiple civilians were killed after a bomb exploded and soldiers were found to be lying in their statement about the circumstances. It is important to realize that these incidents are affecting the public opinion of Iraqis against the US, whether it was an accident, was totally justified or not.

luvbug00 replied: First let me say that I found this headline innaproprate. seccound the article was unclear to me as to exactly what happened.

3rd. this piece of teh article is what needs to get cleared up by athorites.

The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.

"Shots were fired to disable the vehicle," the military said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press. "Coalition forces later received reports from Iraqi police that two women had died from gunshot wounds ... and one of the females may have been pregnant."

Jassim's brother, who was wounded by broken glass, said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital. Her husband was waiting for her there.

they say there are warnings to stop he says there are none. and regarldless if there were postings or not if you have a pregnant woman in your car and she's going to the hospital for any reason are you really gonna stop for anyone?? I sure wouldn't.
If you had a car heading for you and your men in a dangerous country and car is going at a fast speed and you feel your life is at risk would you try and stop it? sure.
this all is soo confusing

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

ITA-we have rights here! If I am being pulled over here I can wait to stop for the police until I feel safe. In this country we can not possibly understand what a war zone is like. If we were in the middle of this war on our soil I believe we would learn to respond and obey things like warnings and rules in a way we can't even begin to imagine now.....

I wanted to add-why report half stories? If this story turns out to be news worthy why not wait until the investigation is complete then report in the facts and not the speculation....I HIGHLY doubt that ,if no wrong doing by these soldiers, is found we will ever see a glimmer of this story again. It makes headline news as a maybe but will be buried,if there at all,if there are no mistakes to report.

luvbug00 replied:

u can do that? I was not aware of that. seriously! I thought if you don't pull over they will just chase u and do the gun pull out like they do on "cops". I feel stuiped now...

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Yes you can put your hazzards on(to show the officer you see him) and wait until you feel like you are in a safe place to stop. If you and Mya are ever traveling alone in the car especially at night you can wait until you are at a gas station or well lit area to pull over. I have heard that if you will be a while before you stop (5-6 miles) you should call into 911 and tell the dispatcher you are being pulled over and your location but you are waiting until you find an area with lighting and people. Now don't go causing any high speed chases

mckayleesmom replied: There is alot to this story that doesn't get touched upon.


1. If she was in labor...was there a possibility they could have left earlier to take their time getting to the hospital? All the roads within miles of all the hospitals are heavily patrolled...you can't tell me that that guy didn't know that...its been going on since they got there.

2. If the baby was that close to arriving...they could have called the hospital and they could have sent an escort or a medivac helecopter to pick her up. They also could have stopped a patroling officer to phone in that they were comming and to let them through.

Point is...there are so many things that could have made this tragedy not happen.

mckayleesmom replied: Also, would this even be investigated had the woman not been pregnant? Probably not.

amynicole21 replied:
Totally agree with you there. The headline is sensationalized beyond belief!

3_call_me_mama replied:
thank you Ed!
I'm sorry, I do feel that families loss but quite honestly with all teh suicide bombers and such how can you know one law breaking person form another? In all honestly I think the possibility of it being a suicide bomber was just al liekly as it being a pregnant person driving through. We are not there and are not living the hell. There is war going on all around these people (ours adn theirs) and when your life is at stake you go with your gut. If it was a clearly marked area as they are sayign ti was then they were in the right in every way IMO to do what they did.
As far as bringin tup the otehr recent allegations in teh same article, that's just eht media's ploy at stirring up trouble. IF the otehr allegations are true then they need to be delt with and left at that. Honestly though can anyone tell me how many americans were beheaded, killed tortured etc when they were unarmed? Civilians at that. Journalists etc that are over theere working and are kidnapped and killed. Doesn't make it right no matter which side it's on but it isn't liek it's the first tiem this has happened. Just my 2 cents!

ETA:
If i were traveling with a pregnant woman in a prohibited are a and there were armed soldiers around, i most certainly would stop In labor or not, Babies can be born in cars or on the gorunds or just about anywhere. Simply stopping and informing them tha tyou need to get to a hospital woudl have aved a lot of trouble AND quite possible gotten you some assistance! Even in the US if i were on my way to teh hospitla and was pulled over by a cop I would stop. Chances are they would be able ot help.

redchief replied: Unfortunately we're insulated to the real stories unfolding in Iraq because we're dependent upon the overwhelmingly liberally bent media in place there for news. The media as an institution has an agenda, and that is to see the US out of Iraq. Their reporting, including headlines and story spin, is tailored to that end. It is sad that the media can't seem to report objectively anymore. They are way too involved in the political process.

The argument that an investigation is called for carries merit, especially in light of what happened in Haditha, where it is possible that unarmed civilians were killed. An investigation should be conducted to be certain our troops are following basic humanitarian rules. Those that are not, should be immediately removed and prosecuted. When faced with the daily possibility of being killed or seriously wounded, it is understandable that some soldiers may not act in a humanitarian and upright manner. Those soldiers don't belong in that place. The job they have to do is frought with danger and difficulties. They are in a land of people who have been taught from childhood to hate Americans. They make no secret of their feelings. Some of the "civilians" that were killed in earlier combat turned out to be members of Al-Quaida, being sheltered and hidden by the residents. I wouldn't want our troops' job, but we also have to hold them to high standards lest we lose the humanitarian battle whilst winning the war.

Finally, I think everyone should have a look at Baghdad ER. The doctors and nurses go to and from work with guns slung over their shoulders. Bombs can be seen going off less than 2 miles from the hospital daily. The majority of soldiers, even those who are wounded, WANT to be there to get that country on the right track. Their purpose is, overall, honorable. We need to honor that committment with our support of their mission.

mckayleesmom replied:
Well said Ed....I see you watched Baghdad Er also....I really reccomend that you watch this and then decide if an investigation should be done. It shows only a small glimpse of how patrolled the hospitals are....There is no way that man can claim he didn't know...no way. They have tanks driving up and down all roads leading to the hospital, the whole street comes to a stand still if there is a mysterious object in the road....such as a garbage bag.....

AlexsPajamaMama replied:
My thoughts exactly

It is really sad that a pregnant woman had to die....but what if she wasnt pregnant...would they make such a huge deal of this story?

luvbug00 replied:

why? because they are american? that's rediculas!! we don't know how this iraqi woman who died. for all we know she could have supported the US helping iraq until she was killed. Who are we to say who's life is more valuble??

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I do not believe that there is a debate about the value of one life over another in Ed's statement. The safety of our troops is paramount in this and every situation that they are in. The fact of the matter is that when you are in a life and death struggle each and everyday calls are made for the greater good. Had that been a suicide bomber coming toward our troops-they only have so much time to disable the threat. Would 100 yards have been too many more for him to come-how about 50 or even 10??? The point is that in a city that is clearly marked and patroled a speeding car,in a prohibited area is a threat to the safety of everyone involved. Once again I will stress the fact that we in this country,on this soil have no clue what it would mean to live in the climate that our men and women over there do everyday! To sit here in our a/c and our comfy lives and make judgement calls against our own military based on a biased,half speculative story on a computer screen is in fact what is ridiculuos

paradisemommy replied:

gr33n3y3z replied: Its very sad

But
when the troops shot at a car that failed to stop at an observation post in a city north of Baghdad.

they were only doing their job.

The problem there is you dont know who is bad bc men woman and children have been the ones shooting at our troops.

USMCwife replied:
Totally agree!!!

this war has been going on for over 3 years.... and he didnt have any warning??? That is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard!

I do feel bad that there were lives lost, but I feel from what I have read that it could have been prevented had he just stopped the car.

If I was here in the US and I was rushing someone in labor to the hospital, no I probably wouldnt stop... but that isnt the case here, the man was in WAR zone, he should have stopped! JMO!!!!

MommyToAshley replied:


I agree 100%... based on what I know of the story.

The whole situation is sad. I feel horrible for the troops that had to make the decision to shoot at the car. I am sure it will be difficult to live with the fact that you killed a mother and child. And, I feel badly for the family of the woman and child that died.

redchief replied:
I think my point was mistaken. The military sets prohibition zones to protect both the troops and the civilians. The zones are clearly marked and the civilians know the troops are authorized to use deadly force when the roadblocks are run. It was further reported that the troops intended to disable the vehicle. The news report, unfortunately, didn't state exactly how the woman died, whether from the vehicle crash or an ordinance wound. As I said before, the incident must, and is being investigated.

My point was this; accoording to the reports I've read the driver of the vehicle ran a clearly marked roadblock and ignored orders to halt. These are behaviors indicative of foul play and often employed by suicide bombers. The troops, IMO, did what they had to do to ensure the safety of themselves and the people they are tasked to protect. We are at war. Let me repeat that in case it doesn't sink in... We are at war. Our enemy uses terrorist tactics and blends in with the civilian poplulation, hiding in plain site. They choose to take their cowardly fight into the streets, thereby putting civilians at risk. That is their choice, and a shameful and evil one. That is the reason for the prohibition zones; to protect Americans there. I don't feel badly saying that. The safety of Americans in war is most important.

jcc64 replied: I have the utmost sympathy for all the parties involved in this story- for the soldiers, for the victims, everyone. Unfortunately, this is what happens in a war. And while I acknowledge the horrendously stressful conditions our troops are operating in, the simple fact of the matter is that we have invaded another country, and my sympathy also extends to the ordinary civilians whose homes have been torn apart. I for one cannot imagine the anger and hostility I would feel if I couldn't conduct my daily life in my own country without the relentless fear of death hanging over me and my family- how would you feel if you couldn't take a sick child to the hospital, or your kids couldn't play in the streets, or go to school. Iraq is not a country filled with nothing but jihadis and suicide bombers. There are also moms and dads and little children who want the same things that we do- heath, well being, education, longevity. To me, war is a court of last resort, because the atrocities that we humans visit upon each other in the name of being right and winning the battle, are hardly ever worth it, certainly not this time. Life is precious, all of it, and not just American lives.
I am certain I will get slammed as being anti-troops or pro Iraqi or whatever someone will want to impose upon this post. I have no ill will toward the troops- they are doing the best they can in an impossible situation. I simply believe the people calling the shots have lost sight of the intolerable human cost of all of this. Which of course is easy for them to do because neither they nor their loved ones will ever actually set foot in the middle of this catastrophe.
And finally, to my buddy Ed- I respectfully have to disagree with your assertions that the media is promoting a liberal agenda. Maybe, once upon a time long ago, that argument could have been made. But in the era of Fox news, and Rush Limbaugh, and Ann Coulter, and on and on, the Bush administration barely needs to hire a spokesman. Oh wait, they just did that- and guess where they got him from??? (Fox news- for those of you who didn't know). My criticisms of the media are legion, and they are not b/c they are biased or unbiased. It's because they have failed to hold the gov't accountable for its actions in any kind of meaningful way. To me, that's a critical component of a healthy democracy.

redchief replied: Jeanne, you know I love to debate with you! You're one of the few people I know who doesn't often agree with me who will present her side without falling into rhetoric. It's a mistake to think that the people of the middle east want the same things we do. Our way of life is so alien to them that they can't truly imagine what it is to be an American. We're guilty of such "sameness" thinking here too. Theirs is a world much different from ours. Children are institutionally taught to despise theological differences as coming from evil. Their women are second class citizens. Where they live, the dialogue we are having now would quite likely get them killed. Instead of trying to maintain a separation of church and state as we do here, religion is the politcal backbone of their society and the two are inextricable. I am in no way demeaning them as people, but I am saying that they do not defend us as we do them.

There can be no doubt that many of the reasons we went to war in Iraq were found to be flawed. But at the time we went there, there was overwhelmeing support for the intelligence that showed Iraq to be a clear and present danger to this country. Having made those mistakes it would be a greater one to leave there with no viable governemt which is able to establish and maintain the rule of law. Leaving now would cause a power vacuum that would only be filled by continuing and escalating violence and death the measure of which we could hardly imagine. That would not only be morally wrong, it could well be disasterous to world political stability.

Saddam Hussein ruled with an iron fist and killed anyone who dared challenge him. He was a minority ruler who maintained power through brutality. That is the world those people know. Security is counted in minutes, not lifetimes. Hopefully, at some point, that will change, but not until the religious extremists who believe Mohammed instructed them force his religion upon the rest of the world are put down.

Is the mainstream media left bent or not? First, I must point out that more than 70% of the news stories coming out of Iraq originate with the Associated Press. The AP is owned by about 1,300 newspapers in the country and it's board of directors come from there. While all of the board is not left bent, a great majority of them are, as are the newspapers they come from. I only read a little of Ann Coulter, so I can't say exactly how I feel about her politics. I have listened to Rush Limbaugh and I find him to be a pompous, arrogant, ultra-right wing, hypoctritical A-crooked-letter-crooked-letter. I watch Fox-News and find them to be a rereshing change of spin. That doesn't excuse their right spin, any more than the way ABC (et al), NBC (et al), CBS (et al), CNN, Reuters, or the BBC can be excused for their left bent.

I do not believe it is up to the media to pressure the government in any way. It's the media's job to report the news objectively and without spin. All of our media fails miserably.

jcc64 replied:

Yes, yes, Ed, I agree with this 100%! I think alot of people here, including the President, mistakenly assume that they are craving our lifestyle, our beliefs, our freedom. While I'm certain many of the women there are miserable with the treatment they endure, they accept it as the word of their God, and view our efforts to change that as blasphemous. I truly get that.
What I mean is the fundamental nature of humanity. No matter what one's cultural or religious background, the urge to protect one's children and see the next generation prosper is instinctive, don't you think? When a child is inadvertantly killed by an errant missile or gunfire, the mother's tears are the same, no matter where she's from. Whether it's the mother of a US soldier, an Iraqi policeman, a Palestinian peasant, we all grieve the loss of our loved ones. And to me, the reason for incurring that loss had better be indefensible- and in this case, it really isn't. Yes, Saddam was a murderous, brutal minority dictator who butchered his own people. He was that same guy when we backed and supported him during the last go round with Iran. We could live with his brutality then- what changed? There are brutal, inhumane governments all over the world- look at Darfur, look at the inconceivable slaughter in Rwanda, God- the list is just endless. Why here, why now, in Iraq? It is not our job to right all the evil in the world through military force- and I think we are now seeing the error in that way of thinking. I agree that we can't just cut and run- we broke it and now we have to "fix" it. How that's gonna happen when these people have been at each other's throats for centuries is beyond me. Throw a little al Queda and whatever other lunatic apocalyptic group in the mix and we're in for a long bloody mess with lots and lots of bodies piling up. I really wish more thought had gone into all of this before we went charging off to battle with all of our fancy shiny war toys. Because we're getting close to doing it again in Iran- this administration isn't too quick on the draw when it comes to learning from the past.
Anyway, I feel intense pain when I hear stories like this one. Because while I don't blame the parties directly involved, I do blame our gov't for creating this whole mess. And I see no end in sight whatsoever.