Immigration Issues - Any opinions?

ashtonsmama wrote: Since I live in CA, I've been dealing with/hearing alot about all this...I'm sure most of you have heard as well. Alot of kids here have been not going to school and protesting.

It's a huge deal here...anyways, just wondering what you all have to say about it. I know there are many different opinions about it, mine is basically this:
-We are supposedly a country that welcomes people from other countries, so why not Mexico?
-They will probably come anyways even if there is tighter immigration patrol...
-My family is close friends with a family that is here (illegally) from Mexico, they have been our friends for close to 10 years, and they are the sweetest, most hard-working, loving people I have ever met. They all work, they make the kids work whenever they're old enough, at horrible jobs like field work and such-just to send $$ home to the rest of the family in Mexico.

Anyways, not to start a debate or anything like that-I just wanted to see what you all think about the topic.

Hope everyone is having a wonderful day!


P.S. Here is an artical from the LA Times on the issue from the 26th...

500,000 Pack Streets to Protest Immigration Bills
The rally, part of a massive mobilization of immigrants and their supporters, may be the largest L.A. has seen.
By Teresa Watanabe and Hector Becerra, Times Staff Writers
March 26, 2006

A crowd estimated by police at more than 500,000 boisterously marched in Los Angeles on Saturday to protest federal legislation that would crack down on undocumented immigrants, penalize those who help them and build a security wall along the U.S.' southern border.

Spirited but peaceful marchers — ordinary immigrants alongside labor, religious and civil rights groups — stretched more than 20 blocks along Spring Street, Broadway and Main Street to City Hall, tooting kazoos, waving American flags and chanting, "Sí se puede!" (Yes we can!).

Attendance at the demonstration far surpassed the number of people who protested against the Vietnam War and Proposition 187, a 1994 state initiative that sought to deny public benefits to undocumented migrants but was struck down by the courts. Police said there were no arrests or injuries except for a few cases of exhaustion.

At a time when Congress prepares to crack down further on illegal immigration and self-appointed militias patrol the U.S. border to stem the flow, Saturday's rally represented a massive response, part of what immigration advocates are calling an unprecedented effort to mobilize immigrants and their supporters nationwide.

It coincides with an initiative on the part of the Roman Catholic Church, spearheaded by Cardinal Roger M. Mahony, archbishop of Los Angeles, to defy a House bill that would make aiding undocumented immigrants a felony. And it signals the burgeoning political clout of Latinos, especially in California.

"There has never been this kind of mobilization in the immigrant community ever," said Joshua Hoyt, executive director of the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights. "They have kicked the sleeping giant. It's the beginning of a massive immigrant civil rights struggle."

The demonstrators, many wearing white shirts to symbolize peace, included both longtime residents and the newly arrived, bound by a desire for a better life.

Arbelica Lazo, 40, illegally emigrated from El Salvador two decades ago but said she now owns two businesses and pays $7,000 in income taxes each year.

Jose Alberto Salvador, 33, came here illegally four months ago to find work to support the wife and five children he left behind. In his native Guatemala, he said, what little work he could find paid $10 a day.

"As much as we need this country, we love this country," Salvador said, waving both the American and Guatemalan flags. "This country gives us opportunities we don't get at home."

On Monday, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee is scheduled to resume work on a comprehensive immigration reform proposal. The Senate committee's version includes elements of various bills, including a guest worker program and a path to legalization for the nation's 10 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants proposed by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.)

In addition, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) has introduced a bill that would strengthen border security, crack down on employers of illegal immigrants and increase the number of visas for workers. Frist has said he would take his bill to the floor Tuesday if the committee does not finish its work Monday.

Ultimately, the House and Senate bills must be reconciled before a law can be passed.

President Bush has advocated a guest worker program and attracted significant Latino support for his views.

In his Saturday radio address, Bush urged all sides of the emotional debate to tone down their rhetoric, calling for a balanced approach between more secure borders and more temporary foreign workers.

Largely in response to the debate in Washington, hundreds of thousands of people in recent weeks have staged marches in more than a dozen cities calling for immigration reform.

In Denver, police said Saturday that more than 50,000 people gathered downtown at Civic Center Park next to the Capitol to urge the state Senate to reject a resolution supporting a ballot issue that would deny many government services to illegal immigrants in Colorado.

Hundreds rallied in Reno, the Associated Press reported.

On Friday, tens of thousands of people were estimated to have staged school walkouts, marches and work stoppages in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Atlanta and other cities.

In addition, several cities, including Los Angeles, have passed resolutions opposing the House legislation. At least one city, Maywood, declared itself a "sanctuary" for undocumented immigrants.

luvbug00 replied: HUDGE deal here too. we have the one of the highest imm. pop in this area. I really have no opion as long as they get jobs and work like everyone else.

ashtonsmama replied:
I completely agree...we live in LA area so it's an ENORMOUS deal here...

luvmykids replied: I have mixed feelings. I'm from a border town (El Paso) and do believe some of the issues that city has are a direct result of illegal immigration and also feel our own country has enough to deal with without "taking on" illegal immigrants. Some things bother me, like a woman can cross the border to have her baby, and then since her baby is a citizen and gets gov. benefits, the mom does too. But I know other natural citizens who don't qualify for aid when they have worked hard for it and truly need it and are rightfully entitled to it. Maybe if we weren't footing the bill for the illegals we would have funding to expand programs for citizens.

Yes, our country was founded by immigrants, and yes, we are open to many, however we also have to protect our citizens and their jobs, funding, etc. first IMHO, which is why the limits are in place and need to be enforced. I know in our industry it's easy to find illegals willing to work far cheaper but we don't do it because a, it's illegal, and b, we're not going to deprive a US citizen of a job.

Having said that, I know many people here illegally and they are wonderful people, we had some very dear friends from Mexico who were a great family, and like you said, hard working, responsible "citizens". They eventually moved back for other reasons but while here really blossomed and I am grateful for the time we knew them.

ashtonsmama replied:
I can definitely see your point, and I agree with most of what you said also...it's just a hard situation I guess...I wish it just wasn't a problem in the first place, but then again don't we wish everything was like that?

My3LilMonkeys replied:
I am inclined to agree with this. However, I really don't know much about the issue because we don't get illegal immigrants in our area.

ashtonsmama replied: That makes sense to me...

earlsmom replied: We have a large imm population in our area. I wouldn't have a big problem if they were paying taxes and did it legally.

Our country was founded on immigrants, but the majority of those immigrants came over legally. One of the men I work with married a lady from Russia or the Ukraine and they went through years of trying to get her to be a citizen. Drove hundreds of miles for the meetings with the immigration department just so she could be a citizen. After three years she is now a citizen.

The people that do my nails immigrated from Vietnam and they are very upset by he illegals, because they went through the correct channels to be citizens. They are very proud that they are citizens of the U.S. They do not send money back because they are wanting to make their life better here in the U.S. and save the money so they can bring their families here legally.

It really bothers me that they do not pay taxes then send part of their money back to Mexico. All the while taking advantage of our hospitals, schools, welfare, etc.

I'll get off my soapbox now. An opinion is like an a@@hole everyone has one and this is mine.

I'm new here and really don't mean to offend.

CantWait replied:
Yes, but do they pay taxes??? Answer to that, no because they are here illegally. So how is that fair to those that work hard everyday and still have to pay their dues to the government?

I'm all for legal immigration. Heck Canada (well choice cities in Canada at least) are made up mainly of minority groups. That to me is what makes our country so great. It enables us to learn about different cultures, experience them, and to taste new and unique foods without travelling here and there, and spending thousands of dollars.

1lilpeanut2love replied:
I feel the same as you do. I will not say more.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: This is a HOT issue here as well. I am completely against ILLEGAL immigrantion. I understand that alot of,maybe even the majority of, the people that come here are good,hardworking people looking to better themselves and their families BUT I know alot of good hardworking U.S. citizens that are looking to do the same but because of the illegal workforce in our area,who are willing to work for a fraction of the $$$ a business would have to pay a legal person, they can barely make ends meet.I know the argument that they do jobs nobody else wants-WRONG The illegal workforce enables many business owners to pay much less than a job is worth so it starts a nasty cycle, of people saying I can't find an American man willing to work for what I can hire an illegal immigrant for. Not many people I know can make it on $3 an hour! Illegals pay no taxes yet have access to our schools,medical care,and in some cases our welfare programs. If they commit a crime they do not have to answer to our laws-they will be deported. I will not even get into the problem of the THOUSANDS of OTM (other than Mexican) immigrants that cross our borders UNCHECKED daily. I am all for bettering your family but it needs to be done legally!

Brias3 replied: Like many have said, I believe they will continue to come no matter what. It's been happening for years. So long as they have jobs and are supporting themselves, I'd say I'm fine with it but not at the price of sacrificing jobs and certain circumstances of life for the U.S. citizens. KWIM? Not sure if that made sense but pretty much just saying I'm for it so long as we, as American citizens, can maintain a productive and fruitful lifestyle for our own labors.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I'm totally going to get flamed here, I know it.

I'm all for immigration. I really am. But laws and guidelines are in place for a reason. There is a reason it takes time, that there is all that screening, etc etc etc... I mean really - with the amount of people, daily, that want to come to the Americas to make a better life for themselves... if we let everyone in, it wouldn't take too long before people coming from 3rd world countries would turn US into a 3rd world country. With the higher population - there is less jobs. There is less housing available. There is less food. There is already a very very high percentage of homeless people... there is so little money available for schooling and health care - letting more people in, freely, just causes problems in the long run. It will stretch an economy that is already stretched enough as it is - and I'm sorry... but I don't want to pay higher taxes for someone else to have a better life, not at the cost of myself and my family having a worse one.

It's all fine and good to let people in to have a better life - but should the lives of the current citizens be compromised?

(this probably didn't come out as I intended it to - hopefully ya'll can "get" what I'm trying to say. Hopefully Jeanne can chime in and clear me up!! )

amynicole21 replied: As long as everyone pays taxes, I have no problems with it.

DH was saying that part of the bill that the Rep. are pushing states that as long as an illegal immigrant pays a fee of $2000 they can become a citizen of the US? Now THAT doesn't sound right to me. Especially considering all of the people who have gone through the proper channels to become citizens. I don't have many details on that bit though.

CosmetologyMommy replied: my dh is mexican and he is legal he was born here but most of his family is illegal. They come here to get on state assistance which I do not agree with. But I think if u come and work hard, then u should be allowed just like everyone else. But if they are illegal getting state help that is wrong. JMO

EvesMom replied: I know many illegal immigrants (mexican, columbian) and they are great people, but, the problem with the illegals is taxes. They come here, work, don't pay taxes, and send the money to their families in other countries. Not good for the united states economy. If they could come here legally we wouldn't have this problem. If you think about it, the majority of us are a result of immigration.

jem0622 replied: If they enter legally I have no problem with keeping the US the largest melting pot of culture that we are fortunate to have!

JP&KJMOM replied: Like Abbie said it is a very hot issue in south Texas as well. My coworkers and I had this very same discussion yesterday at lunch. I think if they come leagally then so be it. I know lots that have and work their butts off. Being in the construction industry I see way more than most people and it is hard. One other thing that people do not realize is that Mexico has the boder on the south side of Mexico completely shut down. If someone attempts to cross and gets caught most of the time they are either jailed or killed. So I guess my question is how can they have such a problem with us enforcing our borders when they do EXACTALLY the same thing with their border.

Being in the construction industry I see way more than most people and it is hard. As I type this we have a paint contractor working on our project who can not get enough manpower to do this job. Want to know why???? We are doing this project on a military base and the requirements to get on base are a drivers license or ID card, SS card or INS card. Well, they have 15 people to bring out here but all of them are illegal or have FAKE papers and can not get on base.

Like everyone else says come here legally and pay your taxes and I will be ok.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

This is a prime example of what I am talking about. My Dad owns a house painting company. I cannot tell you how many bids he has lost out on to a crew of 15 guys that can cut his price by alot of $$$ BECAUSE they are illegal. They pay no taxes so that does not factor into their everyday expense accounting and because they hire such large crews they can knock out 2-3 houses in the time my dad does one by himself or with one helper that is making $15 an hour. It sets up an expectation as well from consumers that I can get my house painted or lawn mowed or roof repaired for X amount ( I am not type casting. It is very big in the construction industry down here) So when they recieve a bid for _____ from a business that does not use the illegal workforce the homeowner is not willing to pay that much. It is a burden on our economy to have people sending our money to other countries and not contributing to our taxes. If people would quit hiring illegals and pay a fair wage everyone would in fact benafit. More jobs to the U.S. citizen means more taxes paid in,less unemployment, and there for lower tax rates and less welfare....

luvmykids replied:
Not only is the labor cheaper but they also don't have the big expenses of general liability and work.comp insurances, which in construction are EXPENSIVE!

BAC'sMom replied: No, really sure about what the solution is. But it breaks my heart to hear ranchers finding bodies every night on the news. Or police chases that end in wrecks that kill half a dozen people. About 2 months ago there was a 14-year boy found dead at a roadside park just north of where I live. But the Victoria Truck stop incident brought me to tears.


Immigration
Border Tragedy
Paper crimes and real deaths

by Brian Doherty

Eighteen people died, crammed with approximately 120 others in the back of a truck trailer, in Texas yesterday.

Why would so many people cram themselves into an unventilated trailer, leaving themselves at the mercy of complete strangers, who, for reasons not clear as I write, eventually abandoned them at a truck stop in Victoria, Texas?

Because they wanted to be here, in America. Because they wanted to do what most people reading this can do as a matter of course: Get a job. Find a place to live, and pay for it. Raise a family. But they could not, because of immigration laws, find an above-board way to find the jobs and opportunities they seek—a way that didn't involve doing business with shady people who, as in any black market, have little incentive to obey the law. If you are already violating a statute, it suddenly makes a lot more sense to violate moral standards (and other statutes, of course) if doing so can help you avoid punishment for violating the statutes.

Illegal immigration—with eight million already here and about a quarter million joining them each year—is seen by some as a threat to our supposedly precious current ethnic balance; by others as an expensive drain on public resources. Still, like most attempts to frantically construct legal bulwarks against things that don't in any way violate most people's basic civilized moral sense (being able to move and work), government efforts to stem this flow have failed spectacularly.

Despite 1986's Immigration Control and Reform Act and 1996's Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, despite ever-increasing spending on Immigration and Naturalization Service (eightfold growth from 1986-98) and Border Patrol enforcement (sixfold growth in that same period), there has been no appreciable stemming of people who want to migrate across our southern border. The desire for access to jobs, to capital accumulation for families back home, to chances at bettering temporarily bad circumstances, trumps even the most solemn efforts of the U.S. government.

Those worried that these immigrants will stick around forever and bury America in brown-skinned babies should take note of the findings of immigration scholar Douglas Massey. Studying the decades preceding the 1986 Immigration Control and Reform Act—a period when immigrants were able to move more or less freely across the Mexican-American border— Massey found that approximately 80 percent of Mexican immigrants did not stay permanently in the U.S. It's much easier to decide not to settle permanently when you know you can return freely if you choose to. Thus immigration laws create perverse incentives for Mexicans to stay in the United States permanently, a result that in turn frightens immigration opponents—who then demand more immigration laws. Government, if it is nothing else, is an efficient make-work program for more government.

And as always, government officials taxing us to deal with the "crisis" of immigration don't admit that most of the problems and costs imposed by illegal immigrants are the result of other government policies, ranging from forced, tax-financed education to "free" medical care, and could be eliminated through the further diminution of the welfare state.

In a grotesque sign of the moral bankruptcy of standard immigration law, the driver who left 140 people trapped in an unventilated container and caused 18 deaths is being charged not with murder, not with manslaughter, but with "transporting and harboring aliens and conspiracy to transport and harbor aliens."

Mere paper crimes created by governments and their borders are sacrosanct—while human beings' freedom to offer themselves out for hire to willing employees is forbidden. Wanting to work or live in America ought not be a crime. Neither should it be a free ride. With those principles in mind, the so-called immigration crisis will disappear, and tragedies like yesterday's won't happen again. Mexicans and Americans can do a lot to help each other. But not when the relationship must, because of the force of hopeless laws, begin in the back of a jam-packed, boiling trailer.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article comes to aWorldConnected from Reason. Brian Doherty is an associate editor of Reason.
Originally published May 15, 2003

JP&KJMOM replied:

VERY well said Abbie. ITA with you!

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

2) This IS NOT a RACE issue. This is a ECONOMIC and national security issue. Leaving the border unchecked as the author of this article seems to suggest (used to) work is absurd in so many ways.

3) It is sad that so many of these people die from exposure and other hazzards coming here BUT there are many MANY American citizens who face the same things daily here because our social system is already streched to the max. As I said before I am all for LEGAL immigration anyother way is called ILLEGAL for a reason. The attemped protection of our economy and our national security.

Crystalina replied: I'm sorry, I have to admit I haven't read all the posts so I hope I'm not repeating what someone has already said. I'm in a bit of a hurry but saw this and wanted to respond 'cause later I know I'll forget.

As far as immigration, it's not a big deal where I live. It's a small town and there aren't a whole lot of immigrants here but I have lived in places where it is an issue. I think that America should start looking at the problem right in America. It's not that the immigrants are getting in because the borders aren't tight enough (I don't know whether they are or not) but the question is WHY ARE THEY COMING HERE? Jobs. Who is hiring them? Americans. Hello! How many immigrants are employed by other immigrants? Americans complain that the immigrants are coming in and taking our jobs and sending the money back home to take care of family. Do you blame them? We are letting them. AMERICANS are taking jobs away from AMERICANS so they can pay an immigrant LESS. Then they complain we have an immigration problem. If some tightwad American employers would suck it up and pay an American then eventually there woulnd't be that big of a problem. I am Puerto Rican/German and it wasn't too far back that my relatives were immigrants and I'm sure many on here are the same. I'm thankful my ancestors had a chance but they did it the right way.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

EXACTLY!!!

Cece00 replied: If you come here LEGALLY, and go through the proper channels, I am fine it with. Then you can get a SSN, and pay taxes like everyone else, and have the rights like everyone else. I think there needs to be a cap on the # of ppl the US accepts every year as well. I also think they should do more to ship illegals back to their country, and I think they should do more to keep illegals out. I do not think if you manage to sneak across the lines before your baby is born that you should get to stay, that you or your child should get benefits b/c you did NOT do it LEGALLY. Illegal immigration is a HUGE problem for our country.