Is anyone here a Christian Zionist?

cameragirl21 wrote: Ok, I've been wanting to ask this question here since Israel started their aerial attack on Gaza last week but have been uneasy about doing so...so I'm going to take a leap of faith and ask...anyone who wants to state your opinion, whether or not you are a Christian Zionist, please feel free to do so but please, this is not a debate, I am just curious to get people's opinions. If you are not sure what a Christian Zionist is, you are probably not one, although you could be without realizing it, I suppose.
Ok, so there are three people on this board who I suspect *may* fall into the Christian Zionist category--Ed (redchief), Stephanie (willsmama), and Dana (Danalana). If I am wrong in any way please accept my sincere apologies.
As most of you know, I lean really far to the left but the middle east is one arena where I lean very far to the right. Not just for religious reasons but really because I have no sympathy for acts of terror. I get that some people on this planet got the short end of the stick and are angry and resentful and want to express their rage to the world but I believe their willful and purposeful killing of civilians and their overall tactics are severely misguided. I also think that things happen in life and we can choose to avenge them or try to find a better future for ourselves and our children. That said, I have always supported Israel, India, and any other country that stamps out terror however they deem necessary. That is just me stating my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm curious, though, if you are a Christian Zionist (or anyone else who wants to comment), what are your thoughts on the recent escalation in Gaza? It is considered the biggest and bloodiest escalation since 1967. I am also intrigued at how polarized the Islamic world is, with so called "moderate" regimes openly blaming Hamas for provoking Israel and the Europeans, who generally do not side with Israel having a very muted response, if any.
What do you think? What do you think Israel should do to solve this problem?
I think they should take out Hamas completely but to do so they'd have to retake Gaza which they already said they don't want to do. To me, that just means this will be another cycle of violence as I see it because I think as long as groups like Hamas are allowed to be in power, there will be more conflict...Hamas cannot exist without conflict, it's its raison d'etre, literally.
Your thoughts?

jcc64 replied: To answer your first question, I think there are many forms of Christianity (or any religion for that matter) that require their members to proselytize (sp?), but as a Catholic I'm pretty sure Ed doesn't belong to one of them.
I don't want to engage in a debate about the current situation in Israel. As a Zionist, I know you find it exceedingly difficult to see both sides of the story, and I think it's an exercise in futility to have that kind of conversation if you're not willing to hear the "other side." I don't think it's ok to take out terrorists at all costs if it results in substantial civilian casualties, as has often been the case. That's about as much as I'm willing to say on the subject.

cameragirl21 replied:
Catholics are also Christians, as far as I understand, but if I am wrong about Ed or anyone else then again, I am truly sorry.
As for the killing of civilians, when your enemy hides behind them there is not much you can do. Hamas refused to let their people leave to Egypt for medical treatment (they eventually relented), and have openly said they intend to use children as human shields. The top dog Israel recently killed used to purposely march among civilians to (and I quote) "dare Israel to kill him among the civilians". I am willing to hear from both sides of the coin even if I don't agree with them. I read al jazeera and their talkbacks daily, most of which are violently anti Israel and by and large, totally anti Jewish too.
I'm not going to debate either, just want to know what people think.

CantWait replied: It's sad, that's all I'm going to say, very sad

OH and thank goodness the air cost to was to high and we didn't book Isreal as part of our February trip as planned.

cameragirl21 replied:
I agree, it is sad. And I'm sure this will be over by February. And there's no violence happening in Israel proper, it's just in Gaza so you'd be safe to go, unless you wanted to visit Gaza, lol.

my2monkeyboys replied: I absolutely support Israel in whatever it needs to do. I believe that country has a very important role in our world, including a biblical role. I cannot say that I am a CZ, as I am not sure what all that entails, though.
Does that answer your question?

cameragirl21 replied:
Stephanie, I probably shouldn't have named names but ultimately, by definition, if you believe that the Jewish ownership of Israel is God's will, all of it, including the parts that Palestinians want as a state and that anyone who tries to take Israel away from the Jews is going against God's will and that the Jews' return to Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy and that ultimately, no one can succeed in taking Israel from the Jews, then you are a Christian Zionist. Assuming that you believe all of the above and are a Christian...there are many Jews who believe that too, they are simply called Zionists while a CZ is obviously a believer in Christianity as well as a Zionist.
Just curious if those who consider themselves to be Christian Zionists fully support Israel's actions in Gaza or not, that's all.
Thanks for answering my q.

my2monkeyboys replied: From that definition then, I guess I am a Christian Zionist. Never knew it had a name -- thanks for the information!
As for whether I support Israel in what is going on in Gaza, I have to say that I'm not completely up to date on what is happening, so I'm not sure.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Gah.

I think that our countries should stay out of other countries' affairs, first and foremost. Religion, politics, and money shouldn't affect ANYONE's life. Nobody should have to be tortured for believing in something different than yourself.. nobody should have to lose quality of live over some stupid rule, or act, or code, that the general population has to live by.. not when those rules, acts, codes are different EVERYWHERE... and money shouldn't be something that dictates whether you live or die.

Don't get me wrong.. I get the WHY of those things.. but I'd much much rather have to live my life being truly independant, and not live behind the illusion that I live in an independant country, where everything is decided for you.

As far as I'm concerned, if people from other countries want to kill themselves, the world is over populated anyway, and I'm tired of all the violence. Yeah I'm fully aware that my comment is insensitive.. but seriously, the less power-hungry terrorists there are around, the safer I feel that the next boatload of refugees being crammed into my country doesn't have one of them on it.

redchief replied: I never really thought of myself as a Christian Zionist, because I believe it's possible for all faiths to walk together despite their differences. Unfortunately my belief doesn't translate to reality very well.

I do believe that the Jews have some claim to biblical right to the land that was returned to them after WW2, insofar as they were displaced from the region by the Roman Empire in the AD 300's, and not, as is widely thought, by the Muslims, whose religion hadn't even been invented yet. What we have to remember is that the area known as Israel (or Palestine, depending upon your religious bent), has been in dispute for thousands of years. While the Israelites have existed in that area of the Mediterranean since about 1900 BC, they remained a nomadic tribe until Moses led them out of Egypt. The Jews took what was at the time known as Canaan by force and established Jerusalem as their religious center after David conquered it around 1000 BC. Since none of the other secular groups that inhabited the area at that time exist today, that would give the Jews a valid claim to the area now known as Israel.

The Muslims didn't even conquer Jerusalem until the 600's AD, long after establishment of their faith and its center in Mecca. Quite simply, the Muslims and Palestinians (not all are Muslim) refuse to accept that the Jews have a right to a home in the region. The majority of Muslims believe that Jews have no right to live anywhere. So, as I've said before, this is not a new fight, but one that's been fought almost continuously by anti-Semites globally, for 1,700 years.

The reasons for the existence of Israel is the influence of Zionism, more on the British than the Americans, and that the Axis lost WW2. That Israel was reformed in Palestine, and Jerusalem returned to the Jews was mostly because of the Zionist insistence in the establishment of a Jewish state and that the Middle East as a region were either Axis bent or refused to take a stand against the Axis powers. The last reason is that Israel has been staunchly supported politically, economically and militarily since the Allies formed her in 1948.

The Muslims have throughout their history been hard pressed to accept relinquishment of any land they conquered in the name of Muhammad and Allah. Further, they have long felt that Jewish and Christian dominance over Europe has quelled the advance of Islam. That proof of that would be established in an area they had ruled for 1,300 years really flies in their collective face, despite the fact that they and the Christians have been fighting over the area almost continuously in that time.

So, do I take the Zionist stance that Israel belongs to the Jews because of any promise from God? No, but I think they have as valid a claim to it as any other group. And they're strong enough to keep it because they've made very good friends. The Palestinians will never accept that they can't drive the Jews out of Palestine, so they will continue to fight. The Israelis have waited and planned very long for a home of their own, and their steadfastness and political support are their recipe for success. The Palestinians are fighting a losing battle, which is really the only reason anyone cares, because it is so obvious to the intelligent observer. It almost looks as though the Palestinians are the underdogs, but we can't forget who they are and what they stand for.

CantWait replied:
You know Ed, for the most part (and I say most part cause I do realize the Western world is not perfect) that does translate very well here in North America. We live fine together in realizing eachothers cultural, and religious differences.

cameragirl21 replied: Ed did a very good job of explaining the history of the conflict. One thing I want to clarify is that anyone who believes the Jews have a right to have their country in their ancestral/historical homeland is by definition, a Zionist, regardless of your religion or if you are an atheist, etc. You can be Christian and a Zionist, like in Ed's case as his support for Israel is based more on history than theology, which disqualifies him from being termed a Christian Zionist but he is still obviously a Christian and a Zionist.
Most CZs are, as Jeanne mentioned not Catholics, they are usually Evangelicals. Jerry Falwell was one, so is Pat Robertson, there are approximately 70 million of them in the US. To be considered a CZ, one's support of Israel is based solely on biblical scripture and prophecy and a CZ will by definition say that Jews have all the rights to Israel and Arabs have none, as per the bible. Incidentally, the Koran, Islam's bible also says Israel belongs to the Jews...a little factoid not everyone knows about.
I was just curious how CZs view this conflict as it is getting ugly, even though I think it was inevitable based on what is happening. There are a lot of children dying in Gaza, which really upsets me. On the other hand, random rockets are falling into Israeli cities (sometimes upwards of 80 per day) and one recently hit a kindergarten playground...no kids were there because school is cancelled for this very reason, it's not safe as long as rockets fall. Israel has a radar system that warns of an incoming rocket but it literally gives people 15 seconds to get to a bomb shelter, which is why there are so few casualties...Israelis have learned to move very quickly when the sirens wail. The thing is it can happen at any time of the day or night and I imagine the parents there literally have to keep their children within arms' reach at all times in order to get them into the shelters within 15 seconds. That would mean having your kids sleep with you, go into the bathroom with you, etc. Obviously something had to be done about this.
And I agree with Ed that it's possible for all faiths to coexist but for that all faiths have WANT to coexist.

redchief replied: First of all, Marie, you're very right. We do, despite, or perhaps even a little bit because of all of our differences, manage to get along. So why is it that we are hated so by some parts of the world? Could it be jealousy? Let's face it, in order to have a stable economy in this world, it's almost necessary to have trade relations with us. We hold so much of the world's monetary value. Or is it resentment?

I've seen people say that we are hated because we're bullies, but we've never acted without provocation. Have we handled some conflicts improperly? Sure we have, but we rarely initiated the conflicts in the first place, with one glaring, and sort of humorous exception that we're continuing to pay for. We supported the establishment of a Jewish state in their historical homeland after the Holocaust. The hate that generates toward us goes well beyond simple resentment. We're not even talking about a big piece of valuable real estate. It's more proximity that Islam objects to.

There are two points that the Arabs and their supporters have forgotten over the last 60 years. One, we didn't start the whole put Israel back in Israel thing, the Brits did. And two, Israel was placed there because the Arabs lost the war (WW2). Had those countries been Allied countries, I daresay that Israel would not be where it is today.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I had a conversation with someone at work today and it hit me... this is very similar to the Native American thing here.. the whole "we took their land" thing.. and our government is STILL in negotiations over it.. what kind of people have to resort to violence, over land? Why can't they just negotiate civilly?

TLCDad replied: Yes, by definition I am one. Regardless of my beliefs though, I feel that Israel or any country has every right to defind their citizens. There is absolutely no valid reason or excuse to ever use suicide bombings or sending missles to kill innocent civilians intentionally.... none never no where!

Could you imagine if Mexico for example sent rockets into the US? Mexico would be part of America by now if they did as we would of definitely invaded and took it completely over.

Our Lil' Family replied: I would probably say I'm a Christian Zionist, although I didn't know it until reading up on it after seeing this. I firmly support Isreal and fully believe that God has protected them, and will continue to!