MIL - I just don't know what to do - religion mentioned

coasterqueen wrote: *sorry, this got long, *

First off I want say that I LOVE my MIL. I have an awesome MIL as long as religion is not being discussed, and sometimes then she's ok. I get along with her great, we can laugh and talk for hours - something I can't even do w/my own mother, she's awesome with the girls - she has a knack with teaching kids things in a way they can understand it, etc. The list could go on.

The problem is her religion. Now I'm not hear to knock her religion, she's a Jehovah witness. I will say that now in case there are any JW's on here, because I'm not meaning to offend anyone. What my problem is, I don't understand the religion and why she acts like she does.

She has only been a part of our lives for a few years now because she lived in Cali and we never got to see each other. So it was a big thing for her to move back home and I wanted her to be a part of our lives, especially the girls. She sees them a couple of times a month and she helped me a lot when Ryan was gone last winter.

The real problem is when Kylie goes to visit/stay the night. MIL (her name is Karen, too) obviously teaches her JW stuff while she is there because she comes home spouting off stuff about it and I know they visit the Kingdom Hall when the girls visit. I'm fine with this all, to a point. I don't mind Kylie being exposed to different religions, I think it should be up to her which religion she wants to believe one day. It's not my decision, honestly. She's her own person and will believe what she thinks is right. BUT she's a 4 year old and Kylie is nothing but a HUGE SPONGE. She's quite different than many kids her age I know. She takes things very literally, she's very sensitive, and she takes things farther than most kids her age. So when Karen teaches her all this stuff Kylie believes it's the only way and gets upset, confused and scared when we tell her it's not what we believe. For instance, Kylie was talking about Jehovah one day and so I said something about God. Kylie told me I couldn't call him God because his name was Jehovah. I told her that our lutheran religion, we call him God and she said it can't be that way, Grandma said it's Jehovah, etc, etc, etc, etc. So when Kylie went to see Grandma again she told her what I said and Karen hands me a booklet that explains that it IS Jehovah and that's that. She did this right in front of Kylie which made me madder than you-know-what. After that I told Ryan that she needs to stop pushing her religion on our children NOW or she will never be able to see them again. I told him that there is no reason why she can't spend time with her granddaughters w/o religion being discussed. He explained to me that that is not how JW's work. They HAVE to tell everyone about their religion and can't stop till someone understands it. So I told him if that was the case the girls won't go there anymore. Kylie talks about a lot of deep, dark stuff when she comes home from Karen's and I know a lot of it is straight from the Bible and such, but IMO it's not for a 4 year old to think about, is it? Am I wrong with that thought? She's just too sensitive of a child to have to register all this information.

WELL, Ryan emails me this morning saying this: "mom wants me to go to lunch with her Thursday. She wants to school me on proper religious beliefs, so i will accomodate her for now." WTF? Why is he doing this. He was supposed to talk to her about Kylie and how she can only see the girls if religion isn't pushed upon them. I feel horrible for it to come to this, but I can't have my child being this confused at such a young age and telling me I'm wrong in my beliefs and if I don't belief what Grandma believes I won't be there in the next life with her (Kylie), etc. I just can't do it. I can't have Karen telling me in front of my children that I'm wrong in what I believe. I mean, I don't think my children should have to believe what I believe and when they are old enough to understand more they will know they have the right to decide what they want to believe, etc. Not at age 4, though.

Things were going so well before these past few months. Karen, her husband, Dh and I talked about getting organically certified so we could garden on our property and Karen wanted to sell what we grow and don't use. That was fine with me. We were going to get goats for our property. We wanted them to clean out the timber brush near the river and she wanted them for their milk. Megan loves goats milk, too, so it would work out beautifully because right now we pay $6 a week for a 1/2 gallon of goats milk. Also, she even asked if she could build a small home on our property down by the river, so you couldn't see it really, and they would help maintain the garden and the goats and also take care of the girls when we needed them to (especially when they are in school and they can just be w/Grandma after school).

Now I just don't think these things are going to happen. What do I do? Please, I just don't know what to do. If I tell Karen she can't be a part of my girls lives this will crush Kylie. Megan is too young to understand. I know telling Karen she can't talk about religion when they are with her is not going to happen. I know it. She has told Ryan before, when he warned her in the very beginning, that if she can't teach like Jehovah wants her to do then she will just not see them.

HELP!

Calimama replied: Is it possible to sit down with your daughter and explain how there are different religions and different people believe in them? You can say.. "Mommy belives in this one.." "Grandma in this one..". Then tell her one day she can read about all of them and decide which one she wants to be? It might be a stretch but you said her grandmother isnt going to stop even if you ask her. Personally I'd be peeved. It's not the religion thing, it's her doing something you've asked her not to do with YOUR child. What you teach your children is between your husband and yourself. I think you need to talk to your husband and make sure you're on the same page. If he's willing to "accomodate" her and you arent, then it will be harder for Karen to understand that you BOTH are serious when you ask her not to say so much to Kylie. Good luck.. I hope I was at least a little bit of help.

J-rod replied: <trying to keep my personal opinions aside>


i think DH is wrong for going against you....even if he may feel in the middle of you and his mom....he needs to understand there is more involved her (the girls) and he needs to do whats best for them. he should agree with you and talk to his mom....and not "go along with it for now" to make her happy......

maybe keep the girls away from her for a while and tell her why.....then tell her she can have supervised visits for a while.... then if she deserves it she can see them again alone..... if you dont want her to push religion....gotta make it CLEAR NOW!.... dont take them away for a while then give right back in....cause you know she will start talking it again with the girls as soon as you leave, especially since DH said thats how the religion is.

luvbug00 replied: I get where you are comming from. I don't want Mya to have any religon in her life until she is as exposed to as many as possible and choses for herself. ( my grandmother has tried many times to get my dad to steal and baptize her. believe me!) but anyway I say let Ryan do what he wants but i would put my foot down about the girls and say that's great if she wants to share some things but do not Knock your religon while doing it.!

luvmykids replied:
I think I would try to approach it that way too, maybe since you do have a good relationship with MIL you can talk to her yourself and just lay it out....Tell her you know her intentions are good and that you respect her religious choices but that these are your girls and you have different feelings about how/what they be taught at this age. Maybe if you tell her you're ok with it as long as she doesn't contradict other beliefs, kwim? Like she can say "We believe such and such" instead of "No, you can't believe that because this is really how it is" type of thing.

I'm not much help but I would be bothered greatly too. I hope you can resolve it in a positive way

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I understand what you're oging through... I really do. Let me try to dumb it down for you - not saying you're dumb, I guess I shold say - let me put it in the same terms that I explained it to my children, and they understood it perfectly - here was our conversation:

"You know how you like to eat mushrooms, but your sister doesn't like to eat mushrooms? You think they're Yummy, but Emilie thinks they're Yucky? Sometimes different people think different things. Even if you tell Emilie that mushrooms are Yummy, she'll still think they're Yucky. "

you could add somethin glike:

"It's just like Jehovah and God - Grandma thinks it's Jehovah that we will see when we go to the Kingdom, and Mommy thinks it's God that we will see when we go to Heaven. The Kingdom and Heaven are the same place, it just has more than one name. Like your name is Kylie and sometimes we call you Booga? Sometimes we call it Heaven, sometimes we call it the Kingdom."

It should suffice for now... she's still young - and very much like my own son, who takes in everything, and things need to be "just so" and if the teacher says something, then that's that, no matter what, *I* am wrong.

You have to simplify simplify simplify... dumb it down to their level... and lie a little if you have to. Tell her that it's just different names fore the same thing... and that it's ok to talk about Jehovah and the Kingdom with Grandma, but she needs to call it God and Heaven with you. She'll get it quicker than you think.

jacobsmama replied: Wow Karen...what a sticky situation to be in. It is very easy to sit here and say just tell her or whatever but when you have to see her and your children and know the consequences it is much different.

So with that said. I think that you and your husband and your MIL should sit down and talk. Why should you have to go and feel like your being told your wrong..? If your husband backs you when you talk about it at home then he should have the guts to stand up for his CHILDREN to her as well. I totally agree with you she shouldn't be pushing that or anything on a 4 year old. And if you have already made that clear to her she gets a VERY STRONG WARNING and that is it. Tell her how the 2 of you feel, both of you and if she does it again then she can't see the children. And if she loves you and them she will understand that you are only doing what is best for them as their mother. I also think you should talk to your daughter about it and just try and say that people belive different things and maybe she will understand more than you think...

How would she feel if someone was trying to convince her and her children to not be Jehovas witness? Ask her that so she can be put in your shoes for a day.


Good luck and KUP, I don't envey that situation at all....

ETA: Well said Rocky...we must have been posting at same time but that is a great way to explain it to her.

lisar replied: Well I think you should have a talk with the grand-mother and explain to her that if she cant see the kids without the religion being in it to that extent then she can see them while you are there. Sorry you are going thru this.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well I know religion is a hard thing. I know when you have Christain values and believe that there is only one way to heaven , it's hard to know that someone my be telling your children different. But they are your children, and you know in your heart that what your MIL is doing is to much. I think I would explain to her that you love her and she means so much to you. You don't disrepect her religion, but you don't have the same beliefs and it's being very confusing to Kylie. Since she is a Grandma you know she wants what's best for her.. and to please leave it you and Ryan to talk to her about God. I would tell her that you were a bit offended when she corrected you infront of Kylie. I mean be honest with her and don't let something this big fester.. you know.

Sorry Karen..

jem0622 replied: Religion aside...the problem I have here is that your DH walked down the aisle and made many promises to you. And, once the family grew, so did his responsibility to you and his daughters. See...some forget this part when they marry. Then they do something really lame...like not stick up for their spouse when someone utters something defamatory or hurtful.

You are the mother hen here. You have to do what is right for you and your kids. And it is a very personal decision.

I do think that you should not overanalyze what Kylie is saying. She is just repeating what she hears. You do need to have a heart to heart with her. I would simply explain that we are all children of God. And we are all different, but we are all loved by Him. And give her something tangible to compare it to. She likes 'x', but her friend likes 'y'. They are still friends, even though they don't like the same thing. Keep it very simplistic.

Then, you need to have DH (not you) tell HIS mother that she is not to confuse her granddaughter by instilling religious beliefs in his children that he does not practice or support. It must come from HIS mouth. If he tucks tail and doesn't do this, then you will have to speak up. I hope you don't have to do this, but be prepared. I do think that, unfortunately, you will have to limit visits to get her to understand. And let her know that you do not want to force her to compromise her beliefs, but you shouldn't have to either...and that is just out of respect for each other.

CantWait replied: I think Rocky sumed it up beautifully. I completely agree.

PrairieMom replied: I think that first of all you and Your DH need to get on the same page so you can back each other up. Maybe he will say something to her over lunch while he is being "educated" that will make her see the light?

Other wise, I think you need to have a heart to heart with her. Maybe address it like "I know that you are coming from a place of love and caring for the spiritual well being of my child, but...

maybe let her know that A) she is YOUR child, and YOU will be responsible for her religious education and She is doing more harm than good by confusing and scaring your daughter, maybe she can wait until your kids are a little older before "Educating" them?

Cece00 replied: Well, I would say letting her be exposed to both religious WOULD have been OK but I think your MIL is going WAY over the line, esp if its scaring/confusing your child.

I, for one, would also NOT put up with my husband going against me.

I would call my MIL and tell her either she could knock off the religious crap around the kids, or they cant visit there. She would still be welcome to see them at YOUR house, unless she feels the need to talk about religion.

Then its up to her. If she cant do it, she cant see the kids.

holley79 replied: I like how Rocky summed it up. That's pretty much how my mom explained it to me also. I had a JW as a babysitter and was VERY confused. I remember being hurt because I had made her a birthday present and she told me she couldn't take it. When I asked her why is when she "taught" me what JW was. I went to a very Southern Baptist church growing up and then had to be explained. I understand your MIL wants to "teach" about her religion but I have worked with people who are JW and they didn't push their beliefs on me or vice versa. You respect her beliefs and she should yours. She also needs to take into consideration that Kylie is young and can being easily confused.

Good luck sweetie.

MyLuvBugs replied: Oh the fun that different religions cause in families.

I totally understand wanting the kids to choose their own religion when they're older. That's what DH and I are trying to do here as well. And just like you, we still try to teach basic christian beliefs of God, Heaven, angels, Jesus, etc. (with a little zen and buddah and hinduism thrown in for good measure. HA! )

But forcing beliefs on a small child and scaring them isn't right in ANY religion. I know JW's can be a little pushy at times, but scaring your own grandchild with your belief system isn't right. You NEED to explain that to your MIL. You said you have a good relationship with her, so just talk with her. Explain that you have certain beliefs as well, and that you are wanting Kylie and Meagan to choose their own religion when they are older. You dont' want to force one upon them. Explain to her that she's actually scaring Kylie with a lot of what she has told her, and YOU as her parent need to protect her from such things. If that means no more visits to grandma's house, then so be it!

Just don't make it seem like you're using the kids as pawns to get the MIL to do what you want her to do. KWIM? You're MIL has a right to explain or "teach" her religion, but she needs to understand that scaring small children isn't really the best approach. And she also needs to realize that they are YOUR children. Bashing your beliefs in front of them isn't right.

Good luck sweetie!!

jcc64 replied: I like Mel's advice. I would add that although I would be pretty furious as well, I would stay away from the ultimatum strategy for the time being. That would be devastating for Kylie, and other than the prosthelitizing, it sounds like she's been a positive presence in your lives up to this point.
It's sad that sometimes people lose their perspective when they get over-involved with a particular belief system, but it's certainly not uncommon. I think you can fairly easily explain the situation to Kylie- you've had some good suggestions from the others already. Grandma might be a tougher nut to crack, but like I said, if you don't back her into a corner, I think she'll come around. Good luck.

Boo&BugsMom replied: I would point blank ask her what is the huge deal that she needs to be spouting off so much because both Lutheran and JW denominations are under the Christian religion. They just have different views. No different than any other two different denominations...just different views and some different practices, IMHO, but all are "Christian". I hate how the Christian religion is divided into so many denominations, I truly do. She should be happy you are giving her a Christ-centered environment, period, and let it go instead of forcing her views on your innocent children. It is NOT her place. Just my two cents on that.

I agree with the others who say you have to be the mother hen and do what you need to do to protect your children. You are trying to raise your children under your values and beliefs and having someone come in and try to destroy that is not cool. It's different when you are explaining that all people have different beliefs, but your MIL isn't doing that...she is telling your daughter "this" is the correct way. I'd also be different if that was the way you were teaching her too, but it's not. There is a difference between "exposure and educating" and "pushing beliefs or practicing". She's overstepping her bounds. I think hubby needs to stand up for his wife as well. They are not her chlidren, they are yours and his! Good luck, and I hope it gets resolved quickly and easily for you.

redchief replied: I believe that if you allow this to continue, your desire to allow your daughter to choose her own faith based upon what she learns as she grows is in serious jeopardy. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not at all certain that removing your children from their grandmother's life is the right way to go either. I'm kind of liking the supervised visit idea. This isn't easy for me to say, because I totally disagree with the whole "let the children decide their faith themselves" doctrine, so in this, I think I'm being fairly objective (basically I disagree with both you and your MIL ). Simply put, you have made a decision regarding the growth of your children, and you MIL is wearing that out. Children Kylie's age are extremely moldable, which is why I think you are trying to insulate her from much in the way of faith tenet. In my opinion, this makes what your MIL is doing much more serious than simply a zealot trying to further the roots of her faith. She is undermining the structure of your family.

It is very important to note also that the tenets of the Watchtower and the Lutheran faiths are worlds apart. We're not simply talking about the differences in the titles a faith calls God, here. The JW have very different fundamental beliefs that you may find unacceptable as a Christian (Jehovah's Witnesses are non-Christian to most mainstream Christian faiths).

coasterqueen replied: Thank you everyone for your advice. I will let it all soak in and go from there. I know I need to explain things better to Kylie. I do try, I really do, and I try to make it as simple as possible, but Karen is a rather persuasive person. She can explain things so any kid would believe her, that's why she really is a good teacher. She can get anyone to understand anything, truly. So Kylie believes that whatever Grandma says must be true. I need to work with Kylie more on this and will do so.

As far as Dh, I know how he feels and why he does what he does. Not saying I agree with it, but I understand. He's spent most of his life w/o his mother. The times he did spend with her were rather crappy, spending lots of time digging in dumpsters for food when she was really really poor and he was there visiting. He loves her so much because she has taught him so many valuable things in life as well as just the fact she is his mother. He's had to accept a lot of things about her, some not good. She had a very very sinful life and had a lot of psychological problems before she found Jehovah. She kidnapped not only Ryan and his sister, but then later tried to kidnap his other brother. Not fond memories of a team of police beating down a door because they thought the kids were in danger and taking you away from your mother. When she found Jehovah he accepted her for what she was/is and there were many times because of it he wrote her out of his life. That was until he had children. He wants so badly for them to be a part of her life, and so do I. Ryan has had many discussions with her about it and she just won't budge. He doesn't have the heart to keep them away from her completely, I can see that. He mentioned to me at lunch that he plans to talk to her about Kylie more when he has lunch w/her on Thursday. So truly, he is in my corner, but he also doesn't want the girls to lose something as well. Which I don't either.

My SIL/BIL had this same problem. Although, my MIL and her DH were living w/them at the time. Things got really bad and my BIL kicked MIL/DH out and said they could see the children, but never bring that religion stuff in his house and the kids were told they could be with Grandma, but the religion stuff stays there, don't bring it home. It has seemed to work for them, but my niece is 7 and my nephew is 13. Much easier for them to understand.

Ok, so I've rambled more than I need to. Thank you again for all your thoughts and I will take them to heart and think about them before going further.

Oh and TannerBugsmom - The problem with JW, at least from my MIL, is they believe that JW is the ONLY religion. That everyone else has it wrong. That Christians took out the word Jehovah in the bible and replaced it with God. That God's real name is Jehovah. I'm still trying to learn all this, so it's hard for me to explain. They do not believe most of the Catholic/Lutheran beliefs, too. They believe that we will not see them in "heaven" (their heaven is different) because we have not accepted Jehovah's way. She cries about this often, that she will not be with her children in heaven. I could go on, but I won't.

coasterqueen replied: Oh, and I wanted to mention when we do "supervised" visits, which is when we all have dinner together, religion is never mentioned unless I or Dh choose to bring it up. She only does this when the girls spend the night. Kylie loves so much to spend the night there so not letting her do so breaks my heart.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Yes, very true Ed. They are very much different. My only point was that it is a subcategory of the basic Christian faith, just with very radical views. But others could argue that with other denominations as well. But I see your point and can understand why many people would put them in a whole different religious category all together.

I'd also have to agree with the first part your post too (sorry I didn't quote that). We raise our children in a Christian home because that is what we believe to be right and true. I wont have anyone else destroying what we are striving to accomplish.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I know. It's kind of sad really. It is a VERY radical and different view of things that the traditional Christian faith believes (no offense to anyone and perhaps I should reword that?), which is why I can understand your frustration.

redchief replied:
What is interesting is that all of the names we give to God are ours, not His. In the oldest Hebrew and Greek scriptural texts, God's name is not Jehovah, but JHVH or YHVH or YHWH. These words contain no vowels and are called tetragrammatons. We're not supposed to be able to "say" them.

Just a little bit of biblical trivia to lighten your day.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Karen I really don't have any advice, but I wanted to offer

I quoted you above b/c I had to do this very thing a few years ago, but not for religious reasons. It was not easy on me, nor was it easy on Maddie, but Scotty and I came to an agreement that was in our family's best interest and I had to stick to it. I do believe that b/c of my decisions my relationship with my mother has diminished somewhat, but I am only partly to blame. Sometimes we do what we have to do as parents and while it may hurt the children temporarily, in the long run it only protects them.

You're in my thoughts.

coasterqueen replied:
Very interesting.

Going to print this out and use this the next time she wants to have a discussion with ME.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Good idea! Karen, did you ever think that maybe God is putting you in this situation to teach her the truths? Just a penny for your thoughts. You're still in my thoughts and prayers.

redchief replied:
It always makes me feel better when I know I'm bringing a family closer together in worthy discussion.

coasterqueen replied:

C&K*s Mommie replied: You will be in my thoughts too Karen. Good luck with any decisions that you make.