Need help~religious friends - what would you do?

boyohboyohboy wrote: My husband and I have gone thru a really hard time in the last 3yrs. He was a truck driver who made great money. Then his job demanded we move to a different town, to be near the rail yard or his job would be on the line. So we did that, using all our savings. When we got here, he was in a trucking accident that cost him his job anyway. It took him almost a yr to find another job. My husband is a very proud man. He was not one to sit on unemployment. He looked day and night for a job, any job. He finally found a job, with no college education and only trucking as his back ground, in a large bank working for the fraud department.
This bank is one of the largest in the USA. It has great benefits, and pays him well. Its enough for us to get by. But he is still really digging his way to the top, to make more money and have self worth.
My issue, he and others have been told that it is inappropriate to discuss God in the work place. During religious holidays they are not allowed to speak to customers or respond to customers who mention it first, such as christmas. It was forbidden to say "merry christmas" even it was said to them first. They were threatened with being fired. Now on the other hand, there are gay pride posters all over and the parade that they had in the fall, was well advertised there and supported. Other issues that are offensive to us as christians (us being my family) are talked about openly, and the sense of family and religion is lost there.
My husband has considered leaving his job. But he knows in this depressed small town finding another one is almost going to be impossible. He also knows that it would really hurt our family. I back my husband and understand how hard it must be to be in a work environment that is so hostile for lack of a better term against religion. But he is telling me if he is asked he is going to tell them that he is a christian and defend his religion. He is also planning on saying "merry christmas" this year.
I think my concern is, would you leave this job, in this current economy? Would you put your family at risk for this? I dont think he has ever been told to stop talking about anything, just him specifically. He just feels its a very non-christian environment.
We have been here almost 3 yrs, our son is still having adjustment issues, we live check to check, and have no savings yet, and this would just be so scarey to me. But I feel like asking him to go against how he feels is wrong too..
what would you do?

amymom replied: I admire your husbands integrity! I think this is one those things you and he need to pray about.

Would I leave a job where my integrity was challenged, when there was no other source of income? Yes! God does provide. BUT I wouldn't be able to do it 'lightly', it would be a very tough decision.

I wonder if the 'anti-religion' stand comes from the top, or just local. Can he talk to HR and see what the company stand is. Maybe a change from within is what God is calling your DH to create.

I always am amazed at places that promote many stands that are anti-religious but then say they are being fair.

I will think of your family

mckayleesmom replied: Well..being in a position where sometimes we live paycheck to paycheck...I would very opposed to my husband quiting his job without having a backup job or some kind of plan. Jobs are not easy to find these days and feeding my children would come before religious positions my work has. Not everybody is going to have the same religion as you and these days alot of companys are requesting that their employees keep their beliefs to themselves in front of customers...It sucks, but its true. When you work for a company you represent that company, not yourself. Most companys let you say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas...I think quiting his job because of this right now would put your family in jepardy financially. Maybe he could start looking for another job while he is employed and he will find something before Christmas....Sometimes pride has to take a backseat.

My husband got in trouble a while back for something that not only did he not do, but wasn't even something you could punish a soldier from. They docked his pay and it was leaving us with virtually nothing. My husband didn't want to fight it because that is just not what military men do...The first time my dad had to send us money for groceries I snapped. I made him go to jag and fight it all the way....Not only did we win our case, but we got to move out of that company. I understand that men in the military have pride and don't like to fight their superiors...but pride was not feeding my children.

I know its bad to have to chose between the two, but my priority overall would be to feed my children and keep a roof over their heads.

stella6979 replied:
I absolutely agree.

luvmykids replied: I am with AnneMarie....I don't think I would encourage DH to walk in and quit, but I wouldn't deny my beliefs in order to keep it. If I was in your shoes I would just continue to pray and trust that God will lead him to the right employer at the right time and hang on until then.

It's a good question she asked about where in the company this comes from. I find it so ironic and amusing that many groups of people who want tolerance and free speech require certain groups to shut up It has to go both ways.

boyohboyohboy replied: It seems to be the company, although he has only worked for this branch, they are in constant contact with the other branches that are in FL and it seems that being a christian makes you the odd man out.
They dont really talk bad about it, but they dont want to talk about it.
The first real policy that bothered him was when he was told not to say merry christmas. But I know a lot of jobs do say that now. Then to add salt to his wounds, was when they supported the gay pride, and posted posters of gay couples in the halls.
I know he wouldnt quit on purpose without lining something else up, and I have heard him talk some lately about returning to trucking. I love him for the strong man of principle he is. But it scares me in this economy what might happen day to day.
I am also afraid that the conversations he gets into at work, at some point might cause him to say something he other wise wouldnt, and cause him to lose his job.
I dont feel comfortable reminding him that he needs to becareful with what he says.
But at the same time, I cant say I feel good about encouraging him to stay at a place that not only doesnt accept God, but down right makes it wrong to do so..it feels wrong to encourage him to stay there, no matter what the job provides for us.

PrairieMom replied: If he speaks as a Christian and gets fired for it, can't you sue for discrimination?

Personally, I would actively look for another job then leave. I wouldn't leave my family hanging over it, unless you have enough $ saved up to get you through until he can find another job.

Nina J replied: I can see, and understand, many different opinions on this. It would be a difficult situation. On the one hand, I can fully understand how a person with strong religious convictions would feel oppressed in an environment that actively supresses their beliefs. I know many people who would stand up for their religion, and in doing so would feel they would be praised by God for preaching (for lack of a better word, perhaps asserting) their beliefs.

I do believe God provides for us. And it is bull that your husband is not allowed to be open about his beliefs and is even instructed not to wish a person a merry christmas. I feel that people have the right to express their beliefs; if the workplace of your husbands allows for gay pride to be openly expressed, they should allow religious beliefs to be expressed. I am sure your husband is not going to stand on his desk and read Bible verses to the office.

Yes, some people do find religion confronting, Just like some people find homosexuality and the support of it confronting and offensive. However, sometimes we just have to learn to live together. We can take offence to other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, but we should not oppress them.

On the other hand, I would not and could not put myself in a position of economic hardship. I like to stand for what I believe in, but first and foremost, I believe in my family. And I would do anything and everything in my power to ensure they are warm, fed and happy. If your husband were to leave his job, without any stability to back him up, you are putting yourself in a very dangerous position.

If I were you, I would look for another job (well, your dh look for another job!). And I would remain in the current position until the oppourtunity for a new job arose. And, forgive me for being brutally honest, I do not believe that you guys are happy. I think you have happy moments, but from what I observe from your posts, their is a greener pasture out there somewhere for you all, where your husband can have a job that allows him to be open and honest, where your sons can be educated happily, and where you don't have these problems making life any less than beautiful. You all deserve a happy, loving home environment, school environment, and work environment, and I hope you find that balance soon.

Keep us posted!

coasterqueen replied: I agree more along the lines of Brianne.

Maybe it's because of the line of work I'm in. I'm not a really religious person so it wouldn't bother me if I couldn't talk religion at work, BUT I'm in a different position. Around here if you aren't Catholic and didn't go to a particular school you are really looked down upon no matter how smart, rich, etc you are. My husband and I have both have realized over the years that you just don't talk about religion and/or other issues at work. I have no problem keeping my thoughts/beliefs out of the workplace. Matter of fact I have to, you just have to in the political arena in most cases. Especially in the lobbying sector because most times lobbying is being done by people who don't even believe in what they are lobbying for. Do I LOVE what I see and hear most times in my job? No. Do I believe in a lot of what they do? No. Do I LOVE my job, though? Yes. I know it's weird, one way you love it and one way you don't. I love what I do, I love managing an office. I love most days being in the political arena. But most of all I LOVE LOVE what my job provides for my family. It provides a paycheck, it provides me leniency to be with my family a lot more than other employers would allow, and I get a LOT of perks my family LOVES. So I'm here. I choose to keep my beliefs and thoughts at home where I know my family loves me and allows me to be who I am and believe what I want to believe.

Probably makes no sense, but this is something my husband and I have talked about numerous times, keeping our beliefs/thoughts out of the workplace and not standing up for them at all times, and we are comfortable with it.

((HUGS)) I hope you find what works best for your family. Whether that is to stay or go.

boyohboyohboy replied:
You are so right! we are very unhappy here for many reasons, but when Dh lost his trucking job it really stuck us here. Its going to be a while so we try to make the best of it.
we keep to ourselves in this town, and try to do things with the kids to keep them happy.
My husband works 12hours days 5- days a week to keep us afloat.
This job is so necessary right now, but its really weighing on us..
sometimes I feel like when you know God is giving you a little whisper, and we are not moving on it, and I really dont want to wait for a larger push, if you know what I mean! I think we did that with Dh's trucking job, and the whispers were ignored and then the huge shove was the accident that could have been so bad.

we are no different then anyone else, economy sucks.

MommyToAshley replied: I could understand if the company policy is that religion has no place in the workplace. But I would have a problem with the double standard when they support other non-work related issues, unless the function of the company is to lobby for gay rights. It's either one way or the other.

I agree with Ann Marie. I think I would also seek a consult with an attorny that deals with equal rigths in the workplace. So often those that are Christian are descriminated against and I think it is time that someone stands up for them. If he does not want to go this route, as I am sure it would not be easy, I would start looking for an exit strategy.... putting out resumes, looking for trucking companies that are hiring, etc. I would not stay in a toxic environment or expect another family member to compromise their beliefs.

What a rotten situation to be in. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Danalana replied: I know this isn't something that is easily decided, but I do believe this: God honors those who honor Him. If you are a believer, then He is your provider. He provided that job and He will provide another, if need be. Psalm 37:25-"I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." It's definitely something to pray about...God will lead him in the right direction. I want to leave you with a reminder...Romans 8:31 says, "If God be for us, WHO can be against us?" Well, sure, people will come against you but, ultimately, it won't matter. Oooooooh, I like this thread! I'm praying for your decision as a family!

coasterqueen replied: Can I ask a question, though, especially to Dana's thread? Are you not honoring God if you go to work and not discuss him? Maybe I understood the message in your thread.

boyohboyohboy replied:
Thank you Dana! I do feel that God is pushing us to do something. I dont think a day goes by that Pete doesnt mention it, and something, maybe fear prompted me to write about it.

I think that God does want us to leave but I have no idea where we are to go. I also dont think DH wanted to take on his job and get a lawyer.
He isnt witnessing at work, it wasnt something like that, it was just dont mention religion at all.

They work in fraud and make many comments about racial and religious profiling. Its part of what they do as a bank to determine if someone is about to break out and not pay back a large sum of money..the FBI works with them on that. I think a lot of what is said there bothers him. Its not always about christians either, its just the idea of believing in God that seems to make this banks feathers ruffle.

Danalana replied: Yes, Karen....it's definitely possible. Sometimes just the way you live your life is as powerful as talking. I believe honoring God is living a life that gives Him glory. If everybody else can talk about things they believe, including beliefs and lifestyles, why are the things of Christianity so discriminated against? If discrimination isn't tolerated, then that should be for everybody. Now, I don't think Christians should go around defying their employers...obviously that isn't honoring God. I'd just pray because I'm pretty sure I would mess it all up if left to my own thoughts and opinions, lol! The truth is that Christians are pretty much guaranteed to have opposition...Jesus had plenty of it. All we can do is pray and live our lives the way we believe He is leading...that's where the honor comes in.

Danalana replied: I understand, Stacy. It's so hard not to be offended and then hold onto that. I know it's a hard decision, especially when you don't even know where to go. It will all work out...it just might not look entirely clear at first.

coasterqueen replied:
Ok, I guess I can see that. I just think in many situations, not just religion, there are things that you just can't talk about at work, or shouldn't as it has nothing to do with your job.

Take for instance I'm republican, but deal with a lot of democrats so I have to be careful what I say around them as not to offend them. I shouldn't have to right? Or does it only pertain to religion? BUT I do keep my thoughts, beliefs, opinions to myself because they have NO PLACE in what I'm doing regarding my job. There are just a lot of things that I think have no place at work. If you aren't working in the religious sector why would you be talking about religion at work anyways? It's not part of your job. I guess that is what confuses me.

coasterqueen replied: Dana,

side note - I guess for me I don't let what others say at work offend me. Maybe that's it. I'm Lutheran and I hear comments made by the many Catholics that come in here about how Lutherans are a "cheap" version of Catholics. I don't let it bother me. They see things the way they see them and I see them in a different way. I dunno.......I'll just stay confused.

CantWait replied:
This.

Also as a non practicing christian, we don't want to hear all the holyier than though talk, there's a time and place for it, and work isn't it.

boyohboyohboy replied: It isnt holier then than though talk, its people discussing things like politics and beliefs and being friends and learning about each other, and as a christian I cant think of many conversations I have that religion doesnt play a part in my answer to almost all the questions that are asked of me.
Its also a way of treating people, of helping people who confide in you with their own life issues,people who ask you to have positive thoughts for them, and some of it is just simply saying "merry christmas"!
Rarely have I been placed in a situation to witness, but certainly have been asked about my stand on life and issues in politics,and people in the world.
I think even talking about the weather and natural disasters sparks conversations about religion.

I think saying religion has no place or value in the work place is really right up there with being a racist. Seperating someone because of their beliefs, color, sex or origin is wrong.

I do not have a problem with people not believing in what I do, I dont have a problem not talking to them about my beliefs, unless I am asked to do so. I dont push my ideas on anyone unless asked to do so. But if you are my coworker and are being my friend, and you ask me about my life, religion is going to come up. If you are passing by me in this conversation and hear me talk about my religion, its absolutely not right to then go to HR and my job be taken away. Thats the type of business this is.
I see no reason to discuss someones sexual orientation at work. I see no reason to advertise a gay pride parade in a work place. I dont care who you sleep with, or prefer to sleep with. I like people for who they are. I dont have to be in their private business. I think hanging a sign that says merry christmas is far different from hanging a sign that shows the same sex kissing.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: God may provide.. but seems only in North America. Everywhere else just seems like Sh** storm after sh** storm, and I'm sure Christians elsewhere in the world don't have less faith than those in North America.

I would never leave the well-being of my family in someone else's hands when I can take care of them even if it means sacrifice.

If that sacrifice means taking people's comments with a grain of salt, and being disallowed from professing my personal opinion about my personal faith in a professional environment, so be it. It's a job, where everyone has to abide by the same code of conduct and professionalism, not a temple or church where everyone is like-minded and abides by the same principles of faith.

I can understand the upset over the posters advocating gay rights, however years and years ago it would have been posters of "colored people", because they were the portion of the population being denied rights.

I don't think the posters are there to advocate something that goes against your religion, it's advocating for a human right = love.

That said, if it were me, I'd suck it up. (at least until something better came along.)

coasterqueen replied:
IMO as a manager, nothing has a place at work except WORK. When you are on break, lunch, off work and out and about, etc that is when everything else has a place to be talked about. You are being paid to WORK, not discuss religion, sex, beliefs, etc. So I guess I don't find saying religion has no place at work being up there with racist. You could have posted your thread referencing politics instead of religion and I'd have the same response. It doesn't matter what the topic is, it really has no place at work.

Sure we'd all like to bond with our co-workers, etc, to make the workplace a better place, but you just have to learn what can be talked about and what not. Just like I know I can't talk about certain politics here at work. Is that discrimination against me because I belong to a certain party?

I dunno, again, like I said in the beginning I hope whatever you decide to do works for your family.

My father always taught me you need to learn what you can and cannot do in the real world and so did my husband. We know what we can and cannot talk about and that's just it, the real world. You aren't being paid to discuss other topics except work. If you want to discuss religion, get a job that focuses on religion. If you want to discuss politics (or even a certain party) go seek a job in the political arena or for a certain party. Etc. etc. etc.

stella6979 replied:
This pretty much sums it up for me.

boyohboyohboy replied:
Karen, it might also be that in DH's line of work, they are set at long tables side by side and wait for the phone to ring, there are times when business is slow and the workers are sitting there socializing until their phone rings. So it isnt that they are having conversation on company time and wasting money, its just the closeness that sit to each other and lack of work at any given time .
In my own job, when we finish our work with the patients we are at the nurses desk fairly close to each other charting, and conversation goes on all the time.
So these topics do come up. I think more so for woman about personal topics then men though.

I also think its part of being a believer to just not "sit there" and not take opportunities that God might have placed for us to talk about religion and be an example as we are lead to be. I think its part of being a christian. So that might be part of the confusion, as to why religion has to be brought up at all. I cant help but feel also that the "real world" might need some changing and if more people spoke out then things might change. after all I grew up in a family that never went to church and never really hung around families that did. I wasnt exposed to religion really until college. If my roommates had kept to themselves and not talked about what people dont feel is "apprpriate" for fear of being labled, then I might not be the person I am today, so I am thankful their are people out there who do speak out regardless of the setting they are in.

This discussion has certainly helped push me in a direction that I didnt realize I needed pushed in. Somehow defending this has made me understand DH's sitation more.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Not to be offensive, but this sounds more like Jehova's Witness talk.

Karen?

(Sorry - I should specify... I mean that the feeling like not taking the opportunity to talk about religion could relate more to Jehova's Witnesses, how they must do just that... not comparing your beliefs to JW. :s )

coasterqueen replied:
I'm sorry you have to defend yourself. It wasn't really my intention. It was to understand, really, some of the other views given as to why they would do what they posted if they were in that situation. Just like I posted what I'd do, which is what you asked, what would we do. I was just trying to understand the other side of the coin. But I'm glad it helped you out.

And please don't get me wrong, I chit chat with my coworker all the time. We just talk about things that would not offend each other or others, I guess. Like I know not to have certain topic convos with her or with my boss, etc. My coworker is a very religious person yet she's never talked about it and I don't think that makes her any less religious. She's mentioned going to church, but that's about it that I recall in the 11 years I've been here. I guess I'll have to ask her if she feels she can't talk about it or is offended because she doesn't. Again, I'll leave myself confused.

Also, there is nothing wrong with speaking up in this world. Just be willing to pay the consequence if you do, whatever that consequence is.

coasterqueen replied:
Um, yes, that is what a JW would do.

I will respond more on it later, but gotta run for a meeting

MommyToAshley replied:
I think you have answered your own question. If he doesn't want to fight the company on this issue, then he has two options: stay and be miserable, or work on finding another job with a company that is more like-minded and would be a more enjoyable environment. If I were in the same situation, I'd probably do the latter as I don't like confrontation but I would also have a hard time working in a place that was hostile towards my beliefs.

CantWait replied:
I'm not saying seperate them at all, but is the place to be speaking about religion, politics, sexual orientation, or beliefs because we all have different ones. Work isn't for personal issues, as much as we like to talk about our days off and what we did the previous day, it's just not the place. I'm not saying we don't all do it, but really it's not.

I say Merry Christmas, but I've worked in companies where the policy was either Happy Holidays or nothing at all. I didn't like it, but is it worth losing my job over when that's the companies policy so that they make all their customers / employees comfortable??

mckayleesmom replied: I'm not saying that he shouldn't quit if he doesn't like it there. I'm just saying that it would be better for your family who is already struggling if he at least found something to fall back on first. Just be prepared to find those policies about not talking about religion or politics in alot of other companies.

boyohboyohboy replied:
not sure what you mean here, but as a evangelical christian, I believe as our bible says that God wants us to tell others about him. I dont know a lot about J.W.

I was only really refering to karen's statement about why does religion even come into the work place, and I meant it does only because I am a christian and my religion and my beliefs would come with me.

coasterqueen replied:
I knew what you meant

Again it does sound like what a JW does. I won't elaborate more on it, though.

coasterqueen replied:
A lot of what makes us comes with us to the job. Doesn't mean we talk about it. IMO if you feel so strongly about your beliefs and how they should be a part of the workplace you should find a job in that "area" or at least be up front with your employer in the interview process. I use "you" in general terms, not you exactly, since I know it's not you, yourself in this position, it's your husband.

And I agree with Brianne, there aren't a lot of places that let you rattle off any type of belief, value, moral. I know where I work we talk about a lot of stuff and I've never felt terrible that I can't talk about this or that. Actually I'm sure I could talk about those things, but I don't feel they further my interests here, i.e. they just have no place.

I spoke with my coworker in the meeting we were just in and she said she's never once felt less of a christian because she doesn't talk about her beliefs here. She agrees there is a time and place for everything and work just isn't it, even though she knows she could freely talk about it with me and I would not be offended.

I dunno.

luvmykids replied: Why is it assumed that if someone is talking about religion at work, they're shouting messages of hell and damnation from the top of their desk or being holier than thou? All it takes is someone saying "What are you doing tonight?", the other saying "Going to choir practice", and the first saying "Oh. What church do you go to?" and you have the makings of a *gasp* full blown conversation

So, seriously, amid the other chit chat along the same lines (What are you doing this weekend, who did you go hiking with, oh your friends from church? etc) that we all know happens in the workplace, people are now supposed to be vague and not give any details so they don't offend anyone? Especially while other people can openly talk about their participation in something JUST as touchy for others, like a gay pride parade?

Someone please tell me you either NEVER have casual conversations at work, or explain to me how talking about an assortment of other things is any different.

I agree with Karen to some extent that some things aren't meant for workplace discussion but I've also made some of my best friends at work and we talked about everything.

I guess we can all say we wish certain things weren't allowed, just like we can all say we wish certain things were but in reality workplace conversations happen, and I just can't see how a company can hand down a rule that one or two specific beliefs can't be included while a million others can.

eta: I'm not taking shots at anyone who doesn't want to talk about these things at work, but if the person talking is just having a one on one type conversation between phone calls and they're being respectful of the other person, I just don't see the issue.

coasterqueen replied:
I'm not sure who you are referring to on some of the things you mentioned, but I wanted to comment on your last sentence. I don't think anything should be allowed if you aren't going to allow something. Again, like I said, work should be work and that's that. Everything I was taught in Business Management, work is work, if you are managing people manage them to work, not "play", that's done on your own time.

And sure convos do happen at work, but I don't have convos that aren't necessary in the workplace unless I know I'm talking to someone who is fine with the convo. If the work policy is such and I was talking to Susie and I know Susie agrees with the work policy, then I won't talk to Susie about that. I think talking to someone in a convo about what you did over the weekend and you say I went to church, how is that REALLY going into a religious discussion? You are stating where you went. That's not the same as saying Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday. Gosh, I've been answering the phone Happy Holiday ever since I got out in the business world just out of respect for EVERYONE. I wasn't even told I couldn't say Merry Christmas.

So along that lines if you are allowed to say Merry Christmas at work and that offends Joe Blow who is of another religion that that particular phrase offends him then your opinion is get over it? Most jobs have this policy so that it doesn't offend the most amount of people. Employers can't please everyone, as we can clearly see, but they have to do the best they can to please the majority of people. So if you should be allowed to discuss religion at work then the person right next to you that clearly believes in abortion can talk about abortion? Even if you do not agree with their belief? Or what if that particular person was atheist?

I guess I'm not understanding the logic that it's ok to talk about religion because it's apart of a person but I can guaranty if you (you in general terms) were offended about something else you'd not want it discussed at work, right?

boyohboyohboy replied: I think part of the issue might be miscommunication on my part.
DH isnt going to work asking people why Jesus died on the cross. He isnt even starting the conversations..
He is being told as part of a whole, not him particularly that God is not part of the bank, that speaking of God will cost him his job, while at the same time, other issues that shouldnt be talked about are allowed, its a double standard.
Its also asking him to not give an opinion even if asked if it involves him mentioning God.
He is told that even if a customer talks about God to him, or mentions any type of religion, not just christians, he is not to discuss it.
many people call into the bank asking for a reprieve from their payments or giving some excuse as to why they are bankrupt and holding on to their last straw and mention God, so its not like he is going in and asking to convert all his coworkers.
He doesnt ask anyone their religious affiliate.
He is upset that his place of business is saying its not ok to speak of God but its ok to speak of other affiliations that are not as well received either....

Danalana replied:
I agree, for the most part (though I don't understand why you can't say Merry Christmas, especially when a customer says it to you first. Ridiculous. Work also isn't a place to advertise gay rights parades, but that was done in the same place.

coasterqueen replied:
Well if he has clear instances where this has happened then he should be able to talk to his boss about that. If not, it's not the employers fault. They may not see they are practicing a double standard, honestly. I know that's hard for some to believe. I would also ask if it's stated in the employee handbook and for written notification that it would cost him his job. If you so STRONGLY believe in speaking about religion at work you should STRONGLY be able to go confront that person about it. That's just my opinion.

Danalana replied: I think the offense is taken when we aren't allowed to say anything at all about God, when other groups are "tolerated" because that's the politically correct thing to do. Why are exceptions made for some groups and not for all? I do agree that the workplace is the workplace and should be trated as such. But come on...how many people go to work and discuss only work? Don't people dicsuss their families and lifestyles?
And I fuess it doesn't matter, since that's not really what Stacy was even talking about It just makes me nuts that people get all crazy about saying Merry Christmas and stuff like that. Nooooooo, don't discuss religion at all, but please take a look at this poster for the upcoming gay rights parade (I'm just referencing this because she said this was going on at her husband's workplace). I hope I'm making sense!

stella6979 replied:
Speaking from experience I think it's so you don't offend other people. When I was working in an office I had to wait on customers that came in and I once said Merry Christmas and was informed in a not so nice way by the customer that he was Muslim and doesn't celebrate Christmas. He then proceeded to preach to me about the Muslim religion and that made me extremely uncomfortable. Now, if a customer says it you first, I don't see a problem with it.

coasterqueen replied:
And again, I don't think anyone is saying one is acceptable and one is not. If one is the other should be and anyone offended by any of it better be prepared to listen and not complain. So of course the employer would be wrong.

My confusion is if ones beliefs are so strong that they'd up and leave a job leaving the family with less than they should (unless you are going to chose unemployment to live off, which I feel would be wrong in a situation like this, but entirely another topic of discussion ) why isn't ones beliefs strong enough to stand up to the employer? If you are going to leave anyways, if that is the choice, then STAND UP FOR YOUR BELIEFS first. You never know, the employer might be on your side, but if not you are out the door anyways, right?

msoulz replied:

I guess he had better not read the writing on the back of his dollar bill out loud then ....

Edited to make sense ...

BAC'sMom replied:

No I wouldn't I would clock in and keep my opinions to myself.

God isn't going to drop down from the heavens and pay my electric bill, going to pay for my grocery bill or for my child's Dr. bill. Now before I get burned at the stake this is just my opinion of course.

Danalana replied: Personally, I would never just up and leave unless I knew without a doubt that God was leading us somewhere else, entirely. While I do believe God is our provider, we also have to use the sense He gave us in our day to day lives. I wouldn't make careless decisions when it comes to my family, just because I want to show people that, doggonit, I'm a Christian and I won't stand for this! And I wouldn't be harrassing people about Christianity, either. I don't believe that's right at all. If someone asks, that's a different story. Honestly, if it were me, I would have to just respect my employer and pray about what I needed to do. Sometimes we are in places that we don't necessarily want to be, but it turns out that we are there for a reason...for a specific season in life. Ok, I know I'm babbling, but I haven't had any adult conversation today!

coasterqueen replied:
Very true!

stella6979 replied:

MommyToAshley replied:


Of course, they are trying to change that along with the Pledge.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Sorry, I don't know much about "evangelical christians" versus "christians"?

I just thought, based on the words you wrote, that "you thought" it was part of being a believer that you should talk about it when the opportunity strikes rather than it is what is written in your Bible. There was no offense meant.

Karen I was more specifying for Stacy, I didn't want her to think I was comparing her beliefs to those of a JW.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
It's not just JW...it's what God calls Christians to do...evangelical or not God calls us to stand up for Him and witness to others. This is in the Bible. Just to answer your question.

On the original post...

I am more or less where Dana stands, although I do not believe for a second that God puts a line between work and personal time. How any Christian could think that doesn't make sense to me, IMO. God doesn't draw a line in a sand between work and home...he wants us to act at work the same way we would at church. He doesn't call us to be "Sunday Christians". I think if it came down to it and hubby had the opportunity to stand up for God...God is going to bless him if he stands up for his beliefs. Blessing him might not mean keeping his current job, but God WILL provide and lead the way to something else...probably something better, IMO. God doesn't drop from the heaven's to pay the bills, but He provides THROUGH other people and situations to provide and pay for those bills. I think this is something that is hard for non-believers to understand...how God provides. I can't tell you how many times God has pulled through while Troy has been unemployed. There is no way we would be able to stand on our two feet without His help! Just when we doubt it, something shows up or something works out for us to be able to stand...and I have only God to thank!

People need to remember, it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

I can see if someone was being pushy and 'preachy' and in your face about how they feel. Even I, as a believer would want to tell the person to shut up. In all honesty, being 'in your face' doesn't win over non-believers. However, I do believe it's pretty discriminating to tell someone they can not ever talk about their religion, at work or not! If someone thinks "work is only for work", then I would expect those people to never talk about their family, their weekends, etc. as well. If someone asks me about my beliefs, you better darn better believe I will tell it like it is! I don't care what is right socially, I care about what is right Biblically!

I am lucky to work in a place that is very tolerant of religion. I think the key word is TOLERANT! If a place of work expects people to be tolerant of other things of the like, they should practice tolerance of EVERYTHING! I am never pushy about what I believe. Some of my favorite co-workers don't believe the same things as I do. I am, however, open about what I believe while I am respectful about what they believe. It's sad when things are one-sided. If people would just stop being so ignorant and stupid and start being respectful of one another, we wouldn't have these stupid issues.

Would I jeapordize my job over this? Yes, I would to an extent. God calls us to stand for Him...not what society views as 'ok'. As a Christian, we also believe what the Bible says, and what the Bible says is that if we believe in Him and stand up for Him, then he will also pave the way and bless us. If this wasn't true...Troy and I would not be as blessed as we are today, esp. with him not having a job! Regardless of our changing and horrible economy, God's Word is never changing. He stills provides now as He did 100 years ago. I would not shout from the hilltops about how disgruntled I am, but I certainly wouldn't sit back and just allow people to expect me to never talk about something that is a HUGE part of my life! If someone at my job asks me if I believe in God and if I believed Jesus died for my sins...you better believe I will shout "YOU BETCHA". If that gets me canned, then I will trust God to provide, and you better believe I will have a lawyer on speed dial.

luvmykids replied:
This is how I imagined the scenario initially, which is how Stacy clarified it after my last post, which is why I wasn't understanding the assumption that he was doing something "wrong". And yes, if someone wants to talk about abortion or whatever, if I don't like the conversation I'll stay out of it but it HAS to go both ways which is what I was taking issue with.

And no, the example I used about asking where someone went for the weekend isn't a full blown religious discussion, but the questions/comments that may follow such as "What church do you go to" or "Why do you like that church" might....I was trying to point out how religion could come up in a coworker chat without someone being pushy or inappropriate.


And, to address the last sentence, I'm not ever offended when a topic is brought up, regardless of my stance on it. What offends me, again, is when lines are drawn that are unfair or disrespectful. If an atheist was to bring up their beliefs, that doesn't offend me. Me not being allowed to respond or being treated differently because of my response is what would offend me.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Thanks Jennie

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You're welcome my dear.

Cece00 replied: I am about as anti-religion as it gets...so take this accordingly...

I think it would be absurd to leave a job- a good job no less- over something like that. Your family comes first and surviving is more important than not being able to talk about your religion.

This just seems like a no brainer to me.

I actually happen to think religion does not have a place in the workplace, but that is just me. Not just one particular religion, but ANY religion, or even lack of religion for the matter. I also happen to work with a group of VERY catholic people in a VERY small company so maybe I am just tired of everything having a touch of religion on it. But I dont discuss my lack of religion @ work and I think it would be great if we didnt have to discuss their religion either.

Cece00 replied:
Honestly, the reason that "gays/homosexuals" are probably considered acceptable @ his workplace and talk of religion isnt is likely because its accepted in the scientific community that being gay is not a choice.

Religion is a choice. Religion is something you teach people. Sexual orientation is not.

I dont really think work is the appropriate place to talk about sexual orientation & seeing posters for gay pride or straight pride or whatever...

But thats probably why the situation is like that.

bluebear replied:
Same!

Danalana replied: But isn't homosexuality a lifestyle? Well, as far as I am concerned (they haven't asked me, however), Christianity is a lifestyle too. Aren't we talking about our lives? Maybe we just have to stop talking about our lives. Or at the very least what makes our heart beat...maybe our kids, significant other, etc...after all, none of that pertains to work. Crazy, right? Nobody goes to work and never discusses things about their lives. Well, I won't say "nobody" because there are probably people who don't talk at all.

boyohboyohboy replied: For the life of me, I cant understand why people are so afraid to discuss religion..but its ok to discuss sexuality...
I am always amazed at the hostility a discussion about religion brings about..

even this simple thread, which was just expressing fear over the current state of the economy and a desire to leave a work environment that is openly hostile to my religious beliefs, has inspired such strong feelings of condemation..

I also can only imagine that people who think you can turn your religion on and off must be unaware of how religion works.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Bingo.

coasterqueen replied:
You brought this conversation on as if it is ONLY about religion. Most of us said no matter what the issue was, it's not meant to be discussed at work and that no matter what the situation is it's not fair to the rest of your family to quit your job because of it, unless you have something already in place.

Seriously, what would you plan to do then? Live off the government until you can find a job that does allow you to discuss religion? If that's the case you made it completely unfair for EVERYONE to have left your job, not just your family.

So again it has N.O.T.H.I.N.G. to do about religion, it has everything to do with leaving a job over ANYTHING that you couldn't discuss at work unless having another job first or a means to support yourself.

Sam & Abby's Mom replied:
I totally agree.

kimberley replied: i didn't read all of the replies but i think i would have difficulty working in a hostile environment too. all of us have had one job in our lives that was miserable for various reasons but stayed for financial reasons. it's unrealistic to not allow the negativity to flow into your home life when you are subjected to it daily.

i am curious why personality conflicts in the workplace merit looking for a new job but mention the word religion and suddenly it's stupid or irresponsible.

my grandfather told me years ago that i needed a job that doesn't make me miserable because it will affect my whole life and family. work to live... don't live to work.

to the OP, i wouldn't quit but would continue actively looking for a new job. i hope things get better.

MommyToAshley replied:

Danalana replied:
YES.

jcc64 replied:
I'm very sorry that your dh is feeling unhappy that he isn't surrounded by people of like mind, but as someone who's been unemployed for awhile now, I think he'd be crazy to jeopardize your family's economic survival for something like this. We're in the worst economic downturn in this country since the Great Depression--and I don't see it improving anytime soon. Workplace relationships don't have to be harmonious, you don't have to have things in common with the people you work with or for, you just have to do a good job and collect your paycheck. Lots of people have to suck it up on the job--it's the nature of the beast.
I personally think it's suicidal to believe that God will take care of everything for you when it comes to financial stability. Many, many people of faith die every day waiting for food, water, shelter, medical assistance, etc. God's not adequately providing for the earthquake victims in Haiti, God's not feeding the starving children in Africa, India, or even here. God may provide spiritual comfort, he may make you feel more peaceful about your money problems, but he ain't payin' your Visa bill, I can assure you of that.
I would suspect that your husband's employer is probably trying to avoid unnecessary litigation and distractions when it established the policies your dh finds so offensive. I'm sure their driving agenda isn't to punish faithful Christians--it's to run an efficient business and make money. Furthermore, there's a HUGE difference between chit-chatting about going to choir practice, and telling someone his lifestyle is positioning him for a front row seat in he#$. Since business people don't typically have the interest or time to figure out which types of religious conversations are taking place, they make all-encompassing policies to avoid them altogether, which makes perfect sense to me.
Good luck with whatever decision your dh makes. Either way, I hope your family's well being remains intact.

boyohboyohboy replied: "A person without conviction is at the mercy of circumstances. If you don't determine what's important and how you'll live, other people will determine it for you.. The people who have made the greatest impact on this world, for good or evil, were the people with the strongest, deepest convictions."~ Rick Warren

boyohboyohboy replied:
Karen, I think its unfair to assume my husband would leave a job and ask ANY one else to pay our way.
I think that is a bit more dramatic then anything he was thinking.

I am concerned that the economy is bad, I am sure knowing him he wouldnt leave without having another job.

I think its important for everyone to be able to give their opinions, thats what I like about this board, thats why having had this conversation for some time with DH I thought I would ask here. Knowing the majority of you dont not hold the same beliefs I do.

I think I should have expressed for sake of argument in my OP that Dh has never once had a religious conversation there. He also probably isnt thought of as a "religious man" just because he doenst make friends at work. He goes in and does what is asked of him and comes home. He is by nature shy. I should have also said, that the fears I expressed were things going thru my mind, not things he said he would or wouldnt do.


Either way, what ever he decides, I am sure it will be with the best intentions of his family.

coasterqueen replied:
I didn't assume. I asked a question of what you would do if you didn't have a back-up plan. I think asking a question is entirely fair.

And I agree, it's the great thing about public forums that you can ask a question and get responses. The bad thing about public forums is people infer things from those response they should not. Things such as assumptions and that their opinion is only because they are against that certain thing.

What I think is unfair is to assume someone can't have an educated/worthwhile opinion just because they don't practice religion like they do.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
The same could be said about homosexuality.

It's not a lifestyle.. it's something in your brain that makes you physically and emotionally attracted to someone of the same sex. You can't turn it off or on. It's always there. You can choose not to follow your heart.. like you can choose to abandon a religion.. but it's there, no matter what.

Everything is a lifestyle.

I choose to have a home.. and so the choice I've made forces me to gather income, thus forcing me to have employment.. etc etc..

I could choose to live in a tent, living off the food I grow.. and not have to have income..

Yeah, a far stretch.. but there's nothing "wrong" with either choice.. it just means there are different consequences for each.

Homosexuals don't choose who they are attracted to, but they can choose to pursue those attractions or not.

People who embrace their religion fully have the choice to do so. It doesn't mean they go to church all the time, doesn't mean they preach about God 100% of the time.. but they could.. and that would be their lifestyle choice.

It's a shame that people (in general) can't just suck it up and be tolerant of each other, regardless of the circumstance, and understand that a conversation on a subject is NOT a blatant insult to someone who doesn't live the same lifestyle.. it's just a freakin conversation, and people (in general) should just take it at face value.

jcc64 replied:

Religious people don't have a corner on strong, deep convictions. Apparently, your dh's employer has very strong convictions about religious discourse taking place on company time. We all have our convictions and our passions, but that doesn't mean it's our duty or our right to convince others that our way is THE way.
On a message board, in the spirit of a debate, yes, but at work, with proselytizing, no.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Exactly. I may not agree with what you said on homosexuality, but I am tolerant and love people for who they are regardless of their choices. One of my most favorite and close co-workers happens to be a lesbian. We have wonderful conversations about so many different things...religion, her lifestyle, EVERYTHING...because we are TOLERANT of each other's views and we love each other for who we are and respect each other.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Stacy, you need to listen to the song "If You Want Me To" by Ginny Owens. Check out the lyrics... Perfect in situations like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q8pWgDsv1E&feature=related

Danalana replied: Oh yeah...one of my faves

lisar replied: Stacy, if it were me I would stay at the job. In this economy he might not be able to find another job. It tough out there right now. If he wants to leave and find another job, I would work there while looking. Dont quit until you have another one lined up. Just my opinion.

Cece00 replied:
No, sexuality is not a lifestyle.

Cece00 replied:
I couldnt agree more.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Depends on who you ask.

Sam & Abby's Mom replied:
is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

Cece00 replied:
No, not really. Some people choose to believe its a lifestyle because of their religion. That still doesnt make it one.

There has been so much scientific research on this its not even funny, and it all points to sexual orientation pretty much being a genetic issue, with possible other factors. But not a choice or lifestyle. Feel free to do some research, but to get you started...

"Potential for homosexual response is prevalent and genetic," Santtila P et. al.; Department of Psychology, Abo Akademi University.

"Genetic investigations provide strong evidence for a heritable component to male and female sexual orientation," Rahman Q et. al.; School of Psychology, University of East London.

"Genetic research using family and twin methodologies has produced consistent evidence that genes influence sexual orientation," Mustanski BS et. al.; Department of Psychology, Indiana University.

"The survival of a human predisposition for homosexuality can be explained by sexual orientation being a polygenetic trait that is influenced by a number of genes," Miller EM.; University of New Orleans.

"Human sexual orientation has a heritable component," Pillard RC et. al.; Department of Psychiatry, Boston University School of Medicine.

>>Regardless of the reason for opposing homosexuality and gay rights, one thing needs to be made clear: the debate needs to shift away from the lifestyle choice argument. Homosexuality is clearly not a choice, a point supported extensively by research. This is not a new discovery, yet many social conservatives talk about the “choice to be gay” as if it is a legitimate argument.


There is SO much out there to point to what I am saying. So again, please feel free to read up on it.

PrairieMom replied: I was wondering when the Homosexual choice / not discussion was going to start.

moped replied: A bit off topic, but I have a question for Dana and or Jennie.......if you meet someone who is homosexual, are you not going to be thier freind because of that?
I am a christian, but certainly not a strong one and not a preacher by any means. I owiuld think to you guys I am not a very good christian I guess I don't understand how sexuality comes into religion.

jcc64 replied: With regard to the "lifestyle" argument--why in the world would anyone willingly "choose" a lifestyle that at worst could leave him/her crucified on a fence dying a slow, painful death or at best leaves him/her vulnerable to perpetual bigotry, judgment, and denial of the same basic rights and freedoms that everyone else enjoys?

ZandersMama replied:
ITA

PrairieMom replied:
Well, if you ask my mother in law, its because lesbians are selfish. every last one of them.
Every single lesbian? Yup.
Um... OK.

I need a more convincing argument.

boyohboyohboy replied:
Jen, I know your question was not directed at me, but can I ask what you mean by "I am not a strong christian?"

RE: CECE, I also do not feel you are born homosexual, and just saying you can find evidence out there in great proportion doesnt mean you can find it out there on the other side also any less...there are always studies that point to either side of an argument. Having more or less info at hand doesnt always make it so, IMO.
If I met someone, and have, and knew they were gay, it does not change my mind or affect me introducing myself and making a friend. I have been friends with gay woman, my cousin is a wonderful, christian gay man. He is a missionary in africa, and gives all his spare time and money to taking care of pediatric aids victims. I dont think God ever meant for any christian to turn their back on anyone..regardless of what they do.

I also think that sometimes people do "pick" to live or do a certain thing even in the face of great humiliation, such as have an affair, break up a family, leave ones own family, for instance. People chose all the time to do drugs, even knowing the consequences such as addiction, jail and death, but they still make that choice. I dont think making the choice to be homosexual, is any different, as far as the life style bringing upon them, bigotry, harm, or less freedoms..
So does adultry, and drug addiction.

IMHO

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Can we draw a line with this homosexuality being a choice stuff?

The attraction itself is not a choice.

The choice is where the person chooses to act upon the attraction. It's a choice to live with/marry a same-sex significant other.. and it's a choice to live with/marry a different sexed significant other.. the only difference here is what goes where, if you get my drift..

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. The type of "activities" performed behind closed doors is the choice.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Yes, if one thinks that homosexuality is, then hetersexualilty would be too.

Sorry, I will have to agree to disagree with you all...except for Stacy.

And if you ask "why" would a person chose a lifestyle that is hard such as that...you don't think being a person of strong faith is hard????? You don't think Christians suffer persecution every day for their choice to follow Christ??? People may not get crucified here in the states, but they do in other countries because of their choice to follow Christ. There are people in third world countries that are murdered and sentenced to death if they believe in God!!! But they still CHOOSE to follow Him because of their belief. So, the arguement of "why" would someone choose that lifestyle doesn't hold any water with me.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Jen, if you study the Bible in it's true form, it talks about sins of the flesh. It also clearly says (if you study it, not just 'read' it) that it is a sin. If we 'chose' to sin, then that is how the lifestyle becomes a 'choice'. So, that is how you get sexuality and religion together. That's the simplest answer I can give you. I could go on and explain more, but to be honest, I do not feel like being belittled by others because I so happen to think more about what God thinks and not what our world has deemed as 'ok'. If you'd like more explanation, I can PM you.

Also, as a Christian, I love people for who they are, regardless of their choices. Sins are sins, no matter how great or small. MY own sins are no 'better' or different than someone else's sins...even homosexuality. God loves people regardless of their choices, and so we should also love people regardless. I would NEVER treat anyone differently because of their lifestyle, just like I would never treat anyone differently based on anything else. Some of my greatest friends do not have the same belief system as I do. but I love them the same, because God loves them for who they are. I only ask for the same courtesy back from others as I give them...and sadly, that doesn't always happen (case in point in this thread)...so, the 'respect' goes both ways. Instead of 'drawing a line', people need to respect the fact that there are many people who live based on their faith and the Word instead of just going along with what today's standards have claimed as 'ok'.

ETA: Jen...YOUR relationship with God is between you and Him...nobody else. God leads everyone to Him differently and everyone walks different paths. Just because you 'aren't a preacher' doesn't make you any less of a Christian. I would never think you or anyone else as less of a Christian because of the paths that you walk on. Nobody's relationship with Him is identical to anyone else's. God doesn't 'measure' our faith honey, He just cares that you have it. Heck, even Jesus' disciples and followers had much bigger issues than any of us. Noah was a drunk, Samson was a womanizer, Elijah was suicidal, Peter denied Christ, Jacob was a liar....I could go on and on. But God still used them for great purposes.

Danalana replied: I absolutely have friends who are homosexual...one used to be my very best friend but we kind of grew apart. We still talk and she knows what my beliefs are...she is totally cool with it and we love each other. Just because I believe something is wrong doesn't mean I alienate the people who do it. That isn't love, and my God IS love. If He hung out with prostitutes and such, surely I can have friends who are homosexuals. Please don't think that I am a "hater". I despise the "church" in Topeka, Kansas (headed by Fred Phelps) that demonstrate with "God hates fags" signs. I don't believe it for a second. Of course, (according to my faith) that doesn't mean that everything we do is right.
It really doesn't matter because we will probably always go round and round on the subject. I believe according to my faith...not science. Sorry, but my hope and faith is not in science (not that I don't believe in science at all). In fact, I am pretty sure some of our science will be absolutely crushed beneath the weight of truth one day. That isn't meant to offend, so I'm sorry if any of you are scientists.
And as far as being a "good christian"...oh my. We all make mistakes and I am so thankful there is grace and mercy. I don't know that any of us are "good christians"...just relying on a good God to forgive when we mess up.
Haha, I had a feeling I would write a novel! To sum it up, I do have friends who are homosexual. I don't hate anyone. I won't let science change what I believe. If I were to do that, what would that say about my faith?
Okay, now...everybody give me a hug!

boyohboyohboy replied:

moped replied: Thanks Jenny! that was a good response and it does make sense to me!
And I got your message, thank you for that as well, I just haven't had a chance to reply!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
No problem.

Cece00 replied:


Wait, what about being a lesbian makes them selfish?? I tried to figure out why she would think that but I cant

PrairieMom replied:
i have no clue. LOL. I am baffled. She hasn't even met one in real life. i asked.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
lol... because making love is only for procreation, didn't you know? no babies = sinful lovemaking.. lesbians can't procreate with each other..

although, isn't the "sin" in the Bible that "a man shouldn't lie with another man"...and nothing about women together?

PrairieMom replied:
lol Rocky. i don't think she was thinking that deeply. I'm sure she was coming from a more judgemental discriminatory place.

Our Lil' Family replied:
I am actually in a Marriage/Sex/Parenting class right now in Sunday School at a Baptist Church ( ) and actually marriage was made for sex and pleasure. I know you were being sarcastic, but seriously biblically speaking, we were physically made for pleasure/sex. Ok, that's a whole different tangent, sorry Stacy!

coasterqueen replied:
Depending on your religion, though, right? There are some religions that don't see it that way, if I recall. They see sex as ONLY for procreation. I could be wrong, but the Mormons did at once time. I'd have to ask someone, my deceased grandma was mormon. I was thinking there were other religions like that.

Again, not like it really matters, just wanted to throw that out there.

Our Lil' Family replied:
I suppose if a particular religion didn't believe the bible, then yeah. There are SOOO many instances in the bible where a man and woman had sex and didn't do it to procreate.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I also took a Bible study that was titled "Sex for the glory of God".

There are some religions and branches of Christianity that think it's not ok to have sex other than to procreate. This is outside of the "a man laying with another man though".

coasterqueen replied:
This is what I thought and they DO believe in the bible. They just must interpret it in a different way. I think that is what people forget, that religions interpret the bible in many different ways and I know I'm not going to say one way is right and one way is wrong - It's not my place to say that. We will obviously know one day what is right and what is not. KWIM?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Yeah, it was a total tongue in cheek comment.