WTF!?!?!?! - This is just sick...

my2monkeyboys wrote: Warning:

Pedophilia, incest involved.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html



How sick and twisted can a government be!?!?!



It's a shame this is a family forum... there are so many words I want to say right now!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I'm officially ill.

My3LilMonkeys replied:



That has got to be the most disgusting thing I have ever heard.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I really don't even know what to say...DISGUSTING!!!!! Those poor babies that have parents sick enough to do this.......

Anthony275 replied: i wish i didnt read that

luvmykids replied:
Ditto.

Crystalina replied:
Yep. Sick Sick Sick

Calimama replied: There are no words.

sparkys2boys replied:
Agreed

PrairieMom replied: OMG

Mommy2Isabella replied:

luvbug00 replied: OMG i'm at a loss..

grapfruit replied: How can they think that's ok?????

The only part I agreed w/is that "bodies" shouldn't viewed in a shameful light. However, THAT is not the correct way to go about it. W/so many proven links b/w THAT and emotional problems, how? I'm at a loss for words...

Kaitlin'smom replied: I cant even beging to express what I think

gr33n3y3z replied: yeah its sick but thats the German Government for you

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
ITA! My aunt is from Nazi Germany-her and her twin escaped-anyway she still has some extremly warped views on the value of life and is a BIGTIME all about ME person

cameragirl21 replied: at the risk of ruffling some feathers, i just want to remind everyone that this is the same country that threw live children into ovens and threw babies up in the air for target practice. idk why anyone is surprised, i am sure not.
appalled, repulsed, and ready to gag, yes, but surprised, absolutely not.

lisar replied: I would have been much better if I didnt read that. And I didnt even read the whole thing.

DansMom replied: That's disgusting.

I'm also DEEPLY offended that this O'Brien person blames pedophilia on lack of religion. There are just as many religious perverts in this world as non-religious ones. I don't want to offend any morally honest people of faith, but I'm sure I could prove that pedophilia is, in some Judeo-Christian circles, practically an institution in its own right.

The source makes me wonder about the translation. What's posted there, if the translation is correct, is shocking and repulsive. That the government would advocate such practices makes me sick.

A&A'smommy replied: I couldn't even finish reading that..... its awful....

momtoMegan&Alyxandria replied:
Ditto. It made my stomach upset just the 1st 2 paragraphs I read.

jcc64 replied: Idk, the whole story is raising my skepical sensors. The source is not exactly neutral about all matters of human sexuality and/or morality. I find it practically inconceivable that the modern German gov't would officially sanction incest and/or pedophilia- it just really doesn't make any sense to me in today's political context . As Tracy said, is it possible something got lost in the translation from German to English? I guess I'm not one to take outrageous inflammatory stories like this at face value, particularly when they are cited by groups with a particular political agenda.
One word of caution here- I know the history of Germany, with facism,the Nazis, the holocaust, etc.. But I hesitate to dismiss the entire present day country as immoral based on past transgressions. The U.S. gov't past and present has behaved in some pretty atrocious ways as well- not on the scale of the Holocaust, perhaps, but I don't want to be categorized as wantonly immoral based on a incidents specific to a time and place I was not part of. The German people have paid their debts, and its time to move on from viewing them all as homicidal maniacs. Just as many white people in this country do not want to be blamed or held accountable for their slave owning forefathers, I don't believe modern day Germans should be viewed as immoral,bloodthirsty Nazis.
Anyway, I'm sure I've ruffled some feathers here, and back to the OT, I obviously find any type of bona fide pedophilia reprehensible and inexcusable. But that O'Brien dude pretty much discredited himself in my eyes by linking pedophilia with a lack of religion. If that was the case, how does he explain the MANY cases of child sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic priests and bishops?

Crystalina replied:
As usual I agree with you. My Oma (Oma=Grandmother in German) lived in Nazi Germany. She showed me a picture one day of Hitler reaching out to her in a crowd. She was a child and believed in him. She then left Germany and realized what kind of a person he was. I still have half of my family living in Wiesbaden and have never left Germany and I can assure you they would not agree with this article one bit. If this is a true article and nothing was lost in translation I'm sure that only a select few agree with this trash.

my2monkeyboys replied: I'm sure (well, at least hoping!) that this is not a widespread, popular idea. The fact that it is even on the radar though is atrocious. And of course religion has nothing to do with it, IMO. Some people are just really twisted, with or without a god in their life.

My3LilMonkeys replied:
Personally, I am surprised (and disgusted) because the incidents you are referring to were decades ago - I would hope that Germany and the rest of the world has learned from that mistake and moved on.

Jackie012007 replied:
well-said, sums up my feelings exactly!

cameragirl21 replied:
tbh, some part of me wants some proof that this is true, i don't see any links to german sources so i think we have to consider that this is a biased source and that the assertions *may* not be true.
however, what happened decades ago was barbaric enough to qualify for the stone ages so i'm not at all convinced that the lessons of ww2 were learned.
however, i will say that i don't think the german govt paid their debts because a debt like theirs can never be repaid imo. the german govt will be repaying this one for at least another 200 years, i will never feel that the debt is paid in my lifetime.

Crystalina replied:
Interesting.

cameragirl21 replied:
some crimes can never be forgiven, Crystal, no matter how much time has passed.
that is not to say i blame the germans of today for what happened yesteryear but i will never forgive the german nation, it will never happen...not in this lifetime.

Crystalina replied:
We all have our opinions and it's straying away from the OP but just on a final note about that... wouldn't that mean "whites" should not be forgiven? (If in fact this is how you are thinking.) Many "blacks" were hung on trees and "we" say, "Don't blame me. I wasn't around then."

cameragirl21 replied:
i think many blacks don't forgive whites and probably never will. idk if it's right or not, but it is the reality of the situation.
bear in mind also that i come from a culture that is deeply rooted in being a part of past, present and future. in other words, when we tell the story of Passover, we say that WE, not merely our ancestors were slaves in Egypt so to us, we all suffered in the holocaust, even if it was before our time and we will continue to suffer for it till the end of time.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:


Actually I do believe it can be linked to lack of religion....There is not a single person in the world who has an ounce of Christ's love in their souls that would do something as horrible to a child...Priest or not/Bishop or pastor it makes no difference (Jesus said whoever harms so much as a hair on the head of one of these chidren is better off to have a millstone around his neck and drowned in the depths of the sea...) IF you failed that lesson and desire to injure a child in ANY way I would not want to be standing next to you when you use the name of the Lord in your defense......

Cece00 replied:
Dont you think that is a little over-dramatic??

You (personally) didnt suffer in the Holocaust and you arent suffering now. Its impossible for you to suffer til the end of time because its not happening right now.

Its a tragedy, of course, but doesnt that take away from people who ACTUALLY suffered in the holocaust?? You know, the people who were taken from their homes, tortured, killed, had their families and children killed? You know, the people who actually have a right to say they suffered...

jcc64 replied: Right on, Abbie!

Hey Crystal- Are you in touch with your relatives in Germany? Would there be any way for you to verify or discredit this article with them? I would LOVE to go right to the source, as it were.

Interesting discussion- we've gone over some pretty touchy subjects with alot of restraint. Kudos to all- lots of good points brought up.

cameragirl21 replied:
these comments simply show your lack of understanding, so i won't take offense to them, although many Jews would.
i can only tell you that we are taught that we are all one and the same...when one Jew dies, every Jew dies and when one Jew is saved, every Jew is saved. when i say saved, i mean from physical harm, not in terms of Christian salvation.
there is an old Jewish proverb that says, "when you save one person, you save the entire world."
after 911, the rabbi who did the memorial ceremony said, "3000 people did not die here, one person died 3000 times."
i hope this clarifies what i'm trying to say for anyone who doesn't understand. i have no problem talking about this but idk if this place is the right venue for such discussions as i know there is huge potential for debate and debate is not really wanted here.

luvmykids replied:
I thought the same thing....I'd be interested to hear the POV of an actual German citizen/resident as to the accuracy of this.

btw Jeanne-thank you again for reminding me not to assume everything I read/hear is the absolute truth

luvmykids replied:
Jennifer,
I hope I don't sound anything other than curious....could you explain a little more about that thinking in the Jewish faith? I'm oblivious to all but the basics and that thought doesn't make sense to me....when in fact 3000 people DID die, kwim? It would make more sense to me if he'd said something like "Along with the 3,000 who died here, we all died as well" or something. I don't know if I'm being clear on what or why I don't necessarily understand that statement Maybe it's just over my head and not something that I would understand without a lot more background on the Jewish faith and practices as a whole.

If you'd rather not respond in order to spare a debate I understand

cameragirl21 replied:
don't be surprised or feel bad, Monica, a lot of people don't fully understand it, i don't even fully understand it...a rabbi gets just about as much schooling in order to become a rabbi as a doctor! there is a lot of study, we are a highly bookish, philosophical and academic culture and critical thinking is crucial to us, it is taught pretty much prenatally. this is one major difference between us and Christians (as i understand it, idk enough about Christianity really to say this for sure) in that Christians are taught basic principles and they are not encouraged to question them. we on the other hand are encouraged to question everything and in fact when a Jewish child is being bar/bat mitzvahed (age 12/13) there is a lot of schooling beforehand, both classroom schooling (after school several days a week for YEARS) as well as private one on one with the rabbi. at this time, it is expected that the child will question our faith/beliefs, etc while speaking to the rabbi, question certain customs, certain things written in the Torah (what you call the OT), etc...if the child doesn't, there is concern about whether or not s/he is qualified for the honor of the bar mitzvah. that would probably explain to many why i tend to veer towards controversial, heavy and deep topics...it's ingrained!
i say the above only to preface what i am about to say, rather to explain how philosophical and academic we are and the degree to which we question everything so that maybe my explanation will make more sense.
i also want to say that i am not extremely observant, just very Jewish culturally and am probably (more like definitely) not qualified to really answer your question so bear in mind that you're not getting your answer from the best source so please keep that in mind as you read my reply.
basically, we believe that humans are deeply tied together...love thy neighbor as you love yourself is a Jewish tenet that's been adopted by other religions but it comes from Jewish scripture/beliefs. that said, we believe that what i do to you i am also doing to me, if that makes sense, because you and i, as fellow humans are tied together so when i hurt you i am also hurting me. for this reason, the holocaust is such a horror to us, not so much because WE were affected but rather because it shattered humankind's faith in humanity and the human race. what does it say about people if they can do what the germans did while the whole world watched and didn't intervene (until the very end)? what the germans did is, to us, a slur on the entire human race, by doing what they did they made all of us guilty as humans, they took away our honor and goodness as a species...and this is why they cannot be forgiven, ever, because to us the entire human race (ourselves included) will never be the same. btw, this is NOT to say that we blame ALL humans or anyone except those who actually carried out the horrors of the holocaust. because only the guilty are considered guilty, meaning only those who did the evil deeds.
idk if that made sense, feel free to ask more questions if you have any.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Jennifer...I am once again surprised at you using the Jewish faith so readily in your arguements. I know you have stated before that you do not practice Judism faithfully and with your intense intrest in the occult (ghosts,fortune telling,tarots) I wonder how that all ties together in your life. I am asking truly out of intrest...I have known several Jewish people in my life and have always known them to be quite against these things as a whole

cameragirl21 replied:
Abbie, there is no question that i am Jewish--i was born to 2 Jewish parents, am mostly Sephardic ethnically although i am Ashkenazi culturally since i was born in Eastern Europe and am very much a Jew in every sense of the word. My entire culture, my outlook on life, everything about me is Jewish, there is no question about that.
it's true i do have interest in ghosts, tarot cards, etc and in theory, they are forbidden in Judaism BUT Judaism is not like Christianity in that you will not be expelled, looked down upon or even lectured for doing any of these things as long as you are true to your faith...no amount of occult or anything else will pull me away from my Jewish beliefs and faith. my interest in the paranormal is entirely secondary. These things do not take away from my Jewishness. I am not extremely observant in that I do not observe Shabbos by taking the day for synagogue, prayer and respite from daily life and as a photographer, i often work Saturdays, it's part of my job.
i realize it may be confusing to you or it may not make sense because your religion views these things differently and you are measured to a large degree on the amount of observance you bear, at least that is how i see it, i cannot claim to be an expert on Christianity or even close because this would not be true.
a Jew is a Jew whether s/he be a fervent and observant believer or an atheist, one is no more Jewish than the other, Judaism is a way of life more so than it is merely a religion.
and you are right, some Jews do look down upon my interest in tarot cards, etc, so they have said to me but they would never say it makes me any less Jewish...idk if that makes any sense.
at any rate, my post was in answer to Monica's question about a point i brought up about not being able to forgive the actions of ww2, it was not meant to try to turn anyone onto Jewish thinking or anything like that.
i hope i have answered your question, if not, please feel free to ask as many questions as you want, this is a topic i'm always happy to engage in.

Crystalina replied:
I don't speak to them much due to the language barrier but my Oma speaks to them every week (she lives with my mom here in town since going blind d/t diabetes). It is my mothers side of the family that live there (all of her siblings.) If I could get the original German article I could have it translated (although it would turn my stomach ) that way we would know if it has been blurred in the translation of it. I could also have my Oma ask my aunt if she knows anything about it.

luvmykids replied:
Thank you, I do understand a little bit better. I will definitely have something to think on for awhile as there are some parts that are still a little abstract to me and I'm not a fan of abstract LOL. But I do feel like I get it to some degree.

On a side note, I do know that Christianity is often perceived as a "don't ask" type of thing and I can see why/how it is sometimes viewed that way. But just throwing out an FYI type of thing, I have always asked a ton of questions because I didn't want to "waste" my faith. There is a lot in Christianity that is simply that, meaning faith, but in my experiences I have never felt I couldn't question. If anything, maybe I wondered if I was asking the wrong person LOL but not wrong for asking.

Anyhoo, thanks again for going a little deeper on that.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

You may be surprised at how undevout I am in some's eyes We do not attend church at all anymore...Bill works Sundays and if he is off we spend it with eachother...I am not even a good Easter/Christmas Christian in the church sense. I understand you are culturally Jewish...which I suppose differs in a way from my belief system in that I choose to be a Christian-I was not born into it by ethnicity. However when I claim my religion it does hinge on a heart/lifestyle in many ways...I can't go out and cheat on my husband,beat my child and gamble the grocery budget away and still proclaim my holy beliefs with any credibility-KWIM? Anyway wayyyy off topic-I was just curious

cameragirl21 replied:
nothing wrong with that, curiosity is my ruling passion, it is imo one of the greatest personality traits a person can have.
ETA--imo, your going to church or not is NOT a measure of your faith or being a good Christian, these things are in your heart.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Unfortunately it can also kill the proverbial cat...which is how I have had it end up more than once

cameragirl21 replied:
that makes 2 of us.

Bamamom replied: Just two comments - Jennifer please correct me if you feel I'm incorrect.

Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion. That might help to explain how a person can consider themselves to be Jewish and not necessarily be devout.

Just to clarify - as a Christian - Love thy neighbor as thyself is not a Jewish belief - it is a Biblical principle taken from the New Testament. It was actually spoken by Christ - Matthew 19:19 That being said many argue that it basically sums many of the Jewish laws of the Old Testament.

luvmykids replied:
Could not agree more

cameragirl21 replied:
just to finish our bible discussion, i wanted to mention that love thy neighbor as thyself is from the Torah, Leviticus 19:18, here is the link to the verse. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...1&context=verse
remember that Jesus was a Jew who studied Torah so there is no question he believed and followed this principle but it was originally spoken in Torah.
A lot of laws in Jewish jurisprudence are based on that injunction.
This has been a rather interesting discussion and i'm glad we all kept it civil, it makes things a lot more interesting when we can all discuss things and get along even if we don't agree or don't understand where the other is coming from. I really enjoyed this discussion and want to thank all those who participated.

Bamamom replied:
I stand corrected - Leviticus 19:18 does indeed say "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." I guess it is a Biblical principle strongly held by Jews and Christians alike. Thanks for clearing that up.

my2monkeyboys replied: If I'm not mistaken, the old testament is from the time before Jesus was born, while the new testament is after. A lot of the old testament and the torah are connected, I believe, which is why there are probably many over-lapping beliefs. Jesus was a Jew in the aspect of nationality, but I don't think He followed the Jewish religion very much. I think it's safe to say that, since He staked a claim to be the Son of God, our salvation, etc. Those two things wouldn't go hand in hand, as the Jewish religion believes Jesus is not the Son of God, nor our salvation.
In my opinion being Jewish culturally and being Jewish religiously are 2 different things. Kind of along the same lines of someone being raised in Catholicism, but never practicing it. They still may say, I'm catholic, but in truth it's what they were born in to family-wise, not really a religious choice they have made. I always assume that when someone says they're Jewish that they mean it religiously. Otherwise it would be kind of like me saying that I'm German, just because I have German blood in me. However, I don't live as the typical German does, so I chose not to tell people that to avoid confusion. I think it gets even more confusing with Judaism... people tend to assume you mean religion, but in reality you mean race, in your case, Jennifer, is that correct?
(Does that make sense?? )

As for Christianity, there are some folks who make it center around going to church, and in the bible it states that you should not forsake the gathering together of fellow believers (which I think church is what it is talking about). I tend to believe that while going to church helps you as a support group type of thing, I think the truth of Christianity rests in your heart.

Anyway, this is a really interesting conversation. See, mods, we can keep things in check!

jcc64 replied: I was always kind of confused by the seemingly interchangable aspects of spiritual and cultural definitions of what it means to be Jewish. When people commonly ask, "What is your background/heritage"- most people answer Italian, Puerto Rican, Chinese, etc... whereas Jews often identify as "Jewish", and I was always puzzled by that. But as I grew up, moved away, attended a school with a heavy Jewish population, as well as worked in an industry and a city with alot of Jews, I came to understand the connection better. Being Jewish is not just a religion- the foods, the language, parenting styles, moral codes, lots of stuff, can have nothing to do with spirituality but can be linked to a shared heritage and/or history. Whereas Christians, Muslims, etc, may share religious ideology but come from very disparate cultural backgrounds, Jews do seem to be linked in more ways than just their spirituality.
Not sure if I did a good job with that, Jen?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Ok, didn't we get kinda off topic here?

As to the nature of the disgust - I actually sent an email to the German Embassy, through the link on the page. This is the response that I got. They wre very quick to answer.

******************
Dear Ms. ***,
The brochure you are referring to was only recently made known to the German
Minister of Family Affairs, as it was designed under a former government.
The Minister agreed that some wording in the brochure was prone to
misunderstandings and needed some reformulation.

The mentioned brochure, which had been accessible online, was promptly
taken offline. No print copies had been distributed for some time already.

The Ministry will design a new brochure in the coming months.

Very kind regards,
Christina Lueckerath
Head of Press Section
German Embassy Ottawa

***********************

my2monkeyboys replied: Wow! What a response!! I'm glad to know that it's been deleted, basically, and that they plan on doing one different. The wording in the response sounds like they are not nearly as upset over that as they should be, though, I think.
Thanks for posting this!!

jcc64 replied: Thanks for doing that, Rocky!

cameragirl21 replied: Stephanie, i will respond to your post in a moment.
first i wanted to say that with a little bit of research, i found that this article and assertion is indeed, true.
here is the link http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/...,497527,00.html, and since most of us can't read german, i did an alta vista translation.
The federal family Ministry removed the brochure "body, love, doctor plays" from its repertoire. With the Cologne public prosecutor's office an announcement had been received before - the plaintiff finds the pieces of advice ambiguous and doubtful. ANNOUNCEMENT Hamburg - which sounds to titles of the parents councellor verrucht. But six years long nobody really disturbed itself to it: "body, love, doctor plays", given change of the federal center for health clearing-up (BZgA). A volume dedicates itself to the earlychildlike development during first to third lebensjahrs, second of the before-school development from fourth to sixth lebensjahr. BZgA Disputed parents councellor: Announcement because of public request to the sexual abuse of children however was refunded now against authoress Ina Maria Philipps and the BZgA with the public prosecutor's office Cologne announcement - because of public request to the sexual abuse of children. "I got the brochure of acquaintance and was read - and the opinion that does not go", said to Ulla in such a way long MIRROR ON-LINE ONE, which refunded the announcement. The 64-jaehrige nut/mother of two adults daughters complains of several passages. For instance these: It is "only one indication of the healthy development of your child, if it uses the possibility of providing desire and satisfaction extensively". Or these: If girls - not even three years old - take "articles to the assistance", then one should not use that "as pretext, around the Masturbation to prevent". Or these: "sheath and above all Klitoris hardly experience attention by tender contact (neither by father nor nut/mother) and make it more difficult with for the girl developing pride on its sexualness." "some formulations misleadingly and ambiguously" The straight last passage excites now annoyance: For critics it sounds after a hidden request, parents should the daughter between the legs affect. Irene John of the child defense association said that, "although the brochure is completely differently meant Paedophile it as justification use could". The federal family Ministry reacted now: The brochure was painted from the repertoire of its clearing-up work, also on the InterNet side of the BZgA it disappeared. Minister Ursula of the Leyen (CDU) called, said certain statements "grenzwertig" their spokeswoman today. "some formulations are misleading and ambiguous." Authoress Ina Maria Philipps was not to be achieved up to the evening for a statement. BZgA directress Elizabeth Pott appears surprised that now after six years misunderstandings arise for the first time and criticism become loud - however: "we take the criticism seriously." A Dozentin of the institute for Sexualpaedagogik is shaken by the stop: "that may not be true probably", says it. Finally, the proponents of the brochure argue, one an important goal had, when the numbers appeared 2001 for the first time: The Sexualentwicklung of babies and infants should not be tabuisiert no more. "a difficult, high-sensitive area" Pott says, the brochure is to show, where borders are, and to make clear that the contact with the children may serve the own sexual excitation or satisfaction in no case. Pott: "earlychildlike Sexualentwicklung is a difficult, high-sensitive area." Therefore one developed and evaluated the brochure with large care. So far it gave only positive feedbacks; Swiss child defense association even inquired to take over the councellors. "the brochures inform about it, like parents their children when discovering the own body and with the experience of the sexualitaet to accompany can", were located at that time in a press release to the clearing-up booklets. An evaluation had found the councellor for good: Institut for market study asked 60 mothers, 30 fathers and 15 educators briefly on behalf of the BZgA after publication. The result of the parents interviews is extremely positive ", both regarding the evaluation of contents also the organization (...) a spontaneous criticism at contents was not expressed." 89 per cent of parents would have to have been indicated, for the borders and the privacy of the children have been sensitized. Also the educators would have spontaneously positively judged - with an exception -. In InterNet forums already longer the study one discusses. The one see in the study a taboo break - which others argue, the quotations completely from the connection tore. Meanwhile both volumes of the brochure are out of print. In completely Germany altogether 650,000 booklets were distributed, them went at kindergartens, family education places, child physicians - and are laid out there probably still today. In addition the councellors uncounted marks were downloaded by the BZgA web pages. Because of the criticism however with the family Ministry one agreed upon to spread also the pdf documents of the two councellors not further. The announcement, which refunded Ulla long and MIRROR ON-LINE ONE is present, was not received with the BZgA yet. Zurzeit are revised both councellors. It will give, says a new edition Pott - perhaps even already in this autumn. Note of the editorship: The Cologner "express" had quoted Irene John of the child defense association thereby, "that Paedophile such official guidances as justification use could". It attaches importance to it, it of the brochure not as a "official guidance" spoke. MIRROR ON-LINE ONE corrected the quotation in this text.
----------------------------------
obviously, that translation is a little rough but the point is there. i won't say what i want to say because i cannot express my thoughts in socially acceptable terms but my opinions on the german nation have not improved, that's for sure, nor will they in this lifetime, nor the next, nor the one after that, infinite....

cameragirl21 replied: ok, in reply to your other question, Stephanie:
----------------------------------
you said:
If I'm not mistaken, the old testament is from the
time before Jesus was born, while the new testament is
after.
True. All gospels were written after Jesus’ death (or at least his time on earth); the authors didn’t know him or anyone who knew him.
-----------------------------
then you said:
A lot of the old testament and the torah are
connected, I believe, which is why there are probably
many over-lapping beliefs.
OT is the Hebrew bible, i.e. torah + prophets, kings, etc. (slightly rearranged)
---------------------
and then you said:
Jesus was a Jew in the
aspect of nationality, but I don't think He followed
the Jewish religion very much. I think it's safe to
say that, since He staked a claim to be the Son of
God, our salvation, etc. Those two things wouldn't go
hand in hand, as the Jewish religion believes Jesus is
not the Son of God, nor our salvation.
Jesus was a torah-believing practicing Jew. He prayed at the temple, observed Jewish holidays (last supper was actually the seder) , kept kosher, etc. his belief in salvation and being the Son of God is not exactly orthodox, but doesn’t make him a non-Jew. Just like my interest in fortune telling doesn’t make me a non-Jew. He certainly considered himself Jewish .
--------------------
and then you said:
In my opinion being Jewish culturally and being Jewish
religiously are 2 different things. Kind of along the
same lines of someone being raised in Catholicism, but
never practicing it. They still may say, I'm catholic,
but in truth it's what they were born in to
family-wise, not really a religious choice they have
made.
True.
-----------------------
and then you said:
I always assume that when someone says they're
Jewish that they mean it religiously.
Very bad assumption, kinda like assuming that every dog is female – pretty much the same chance of getting it right. A Jew is a Jew regardless of the degree of observance s/he practices.
----------------------
and then:
Otherwise it
would be kind of like me saying that I'm German, just
because I have German blood in me. However, I don't
live as the typical German does, so I chose not to
tell people that to avoid confusion. I think it gets
even more confusing with Judaism... people tend to
assume you mean religion, but in reality you mean
race, in your case, Jennifer, is that correct?
(Does that make sense?? )
Being a Jew has nothing to do with race. Ethiopian Jews are not of the same race with me but they are just as Jewish as i am.
--------------------
and then:
As for Christianity, there are some folks who make it
center around going to church, and in the bible it
states that you should not forsake the gathering
together of fellow believers (which I think church is
what it is talking about). I tend to believe that
while going to church helps you as a support group
type of thing, I think the truth of Christianity rests
in your heart.
[B]i'm afraid this one is out of my jurisdiction as i am not a Christian so i can only state my opinion but in principle i agree with you that religion/faith/spirituality is what you feel in your heart, not the degree of practice/worship you observe.
------------
and finally:
Anyway, this is a really interesting conversation.
See, mods, we can keep things in check!
i agree entirely, this conversation has been very interesting and we've all kept it nice and clean, kudos to all of us.
Sorry for the unorthodox way i quoted and responded, i still haven't figured out how to quote more than one thing in a post.
and Jeanne, you are right, Jews are more than a religion and are tied by more than spirituality, we are tied by culture, parenting style, and a deep rooted sense of history which is largely why i and just about any Jew will say that what happened in the past, such as the holocaust, the spanish inquisition, slavery in egypt, and various other torment at the hands of others will NEVER be forgiven as it didn't happen to Jews in the past or our ancestors, it happend to ALL OF US. Every year at Passover, we finish the seder by saying, "This year, we celebrate Passover here as slaves, next year in Jerusalem." except for those Jews who ARE in Jerusalem, they say, "next year in Brooklyn" lol, just kidding, they don't say it at all but the rest of us do.

my2monkeyboys replied: I like that... in Brooklyn! Pretty funny stuff!
I know Jews aren't a race, I just couldn't figure out the wording to express what I was meaning, so I used races as an example. Yeah, I know... not so great example!
I've never really thought about how much Jesus practiced Judaism, but you're right. I guess I figured that since His beliefs about Himself were against what traditional Judaism beliefs are, that He couldn't really be Jewish, in that sense anyway.
So when you're conversing with other Jews, particularly those you don't know, do you (not specifically, but Jewish people as a whole) make it a point to say whether your are a practicing Jew or not? Does that make a difference in anything on a social type of level?

That translation is a bit confusing, but enough comes through to get the point of it. I'm glad to see the new government is doing away with it, but I'd love to know how exactly they change the wording. I don't trust them to do the truly right thing, simply bc of how their response was to Rocky.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You are correct on all accounts! I am also Jewish, partly, by blood, but I am a Christian. If I were Jewish by religion I would not be a Christian because the Jewish faith does not believe in the Messiah, AKA: Jesus. We believe in the same God, but the belief/disbelief in Christ is what separates the faiths...which is a HUGE difference.

And Yes, Jesus was a VERY practicing Jew. When he came to "save the lost" (per, the Bible), that is when the religion started to change. The Jewish religion then and the Jewish religion now , are very different in many ways.

I don't know if I'd agree with the Catholic example though being the same as the Jewish one, because you aren't "born" culturally Catholic like you are Jewish, if that makes sense. You can't be born into heritage or faith, but you can be brought up into faith. Wheras you can culturally be born Jewish and raised in the Jewish faith as well.

BTW, interesting response they gave. Confusing, but interesting.

cameragirl21 replied:
yeah, altavista doesn't give the best translations but it is proof that your article was true, which did surprise me because i didn't think something like that would even be up for discussion in a Western nation.
and i figured that you didn't really mean race but since you asked and brought up the point i figured i'd just clear that up.
this really has been a very intriguing topic, i'm glad we all could enjoy it.

Crystalina replied:
We also have to take into consideration that Rocky is not the first to approach them with this and that they are just giving her a generic, to the point response d/t dealing with this with others already.

luvbug00 replied: I am soo sorry but i am sitting here going Are you kidding me! I am well aware that what i'm gonna say is gonna seriously tick some people off but again i have the right to say it so i shall.

first i can't believe that an entire people are being accused of agreeing with the brochure. Lars and his family are german and i told them about this and they just commented how stuiped it was and laughed.

secound i can't believe people still bring up the holocost and hold it against the german people. I laugh for it is just utterly unbelievable!

if we were to seriously start throwing stones though, shouldn't they be thrown at british for slavery and then to the spanish for murdering mayan indians. Oh and then don't forget the portugease for the brizilan people?? the world has been and continues to be a survival of the fittest and to hold people alive today accountable of their ansesters actions is just dumb.

My personal beliefs in religon has been changing and evolving over the years but christianity does have the purest of histories either. There is no religon without blush on their name.

cameragirl21 replied:
if you don't believe it then you don't know someone whose relatives were thrown into an oven or died in a gas chamber, nor do you know someone with a number tattoo on his/her arm because if you did, trust me, you'd believe it. that is a very, very insensitive thing to say.
that's all i'm going to say about that subject.

cameragirl21 replied:
I would like to know how the Jewish religion is different now than it was in Jesus' day, how is it different?
i am unaware of any differences, other than that we don't go to the temple in Jerusalem anymore, but that is only because it is not there. as soon as it is rebuilt, the worship will resume there.
what other differences did you mean, because i am unaware of any, besides the temple....

luvbug00 replied: Jennifer my entire mothers side is german. My Opa and Oma were in that war and not on the "good" side. NOT BY CHOISE and fortunately not involved in the actions agains the Jewish ,Gypsy's and others who were sent to the camps. But to put the entire ordeal on one people is not right. period. I laugh because people think that all germans thought the way hitler did and they went into the war volentaraly and most, cirtenly did not. I never said it didn't happen but to bring up the holocost every time the german people do somthing that is questionable to others it is compleately unfair!

luvmykids replied:
I didn't get the impression that anyone was debating that any religion was better than another, and frankly it would be a debate with no end in sight because you will never change peoples minds. All I saw here was just answering questions about the Jewish faith.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
The Jewish religion changed when Jesus came. Is Jesus not going to believe in himself? Think about it. I don't know how to explain it any other way other than that. I'm not saying rituals and practices are different, I am talking about the separation between the believers in Christ and the Jewish people who decided not to beleive he was the Messiah.

cameragirl21 replied:
Jennie, the Jewish religion has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. Not one thing about Judaism changed with the birth or death of Jesus, or any other aspect of his life.
Incidentally, Christianity came to be about 100 years after Jesus died, when the first gospel was written, not by Jesus himself. So it wasn't a question of Jesus believing in himself, he was not a Christian at all but rather he lived and died a Jew.
that is beside the point anyway, all i wanted to point out is that Judaism has not changed a bit since ancient times, certainly modernity came to be, but nothing about our beliefs, traditions, customs, etc has changed a bit. We are a people/culture/tradition that is over 4000 years old, completely unaltered.
the separation between the Jewish people and those who believe in Jesus is not a change in Judaism but rather the formation of an entirely new religion.

luvmykids replied:
I'm not basing this on anything theological, JMHO that a form of Christianity did exist during that time....He had devout followers who did believe He was the Messiah and their salvation, so in essence, weren't they Christians? I'm basing that on the basic belief of Christianity, that Jesus was sent to offer salvation and that He is the only way to salvation.

Again, not being debateful (is that a word? ) Just stating my humble opinion that although it may not have been an organized religion in His time, there were definitely Christians around.

Crystalina replied: Jennifer first of all I say very very truthfully that I am not attacking you and I agree with you on many other points you make here and there on the forums.

But (there is always a but. ), I'm curious to know how you deal with Germans IRL. You are very adamant that you can not forgive Germans for the Holocaust so how do you live/function in a country where they live? Do you turn them away? Do you question them? If you were to see my Oma would you blame her? She is 100% full blooded German.

This article is like any other crappy article. There is nothing to substantiate it as of now.

cameragirl21 replied:
you have a point, Monica, i am speaking of Christianity as an organized religion. every organized religion starts with a small group of followers and it snowballs from there.
Jesus himself, however, was not a Christian, so it's really not a question of him believing in himself or not.
The fundamental difference between Jewish beliefs and Christian beliefs is that Jews believe in a Messiah but we believe he hasn't come yet. Whereas obviously Christians believe in Jesus as the Messiah.
i definitely did not want to turn this into a debate about Christianity because i don't feel i have enough knowledge on the subject to debate it with confidence, i was just trying to explain to Jennie that Judaism never changed, other than the fact that we don't worship at the temple anymore, simply because it is no longer there. once it's rebuilt, that too will resume.

cameragirl21 replied:
Crystal, i appreciate your questions and appreciate questions in general, i believe people should ask questions more, that is how we learn. so don't ever feel bad about asking me questions, i welcome them.
one thing i pointed out is that i do not blame the germans of today for what happened in the past. i blame the german NATION, they will never be forgiven, there will never be redemption, this is a crime against all of humanity and there can never, ever be forgiveness for this atrocity. i also want to add that not a day goes by that i don't think about this, so i DO suffer for it. when i am going to bed at night and i am cold and reach for another blanket, i often think that those in the holocaust were really cold and had no beds or blankets. when i am eating and i reach for seconds, it crosses my mind that the Jews before me (among others also in the camps) had hardly any food. when i am tired or don't feel good and go to bed without getting done all the work i meant to do, i often think that if i were a Jew in nazi germany, i'd not have that option. remember too that i have bad asthma...i'd be one of the first that they'd have killed off due to my health problems. i think about this all the time, i will be forever haunted, there is no escaping this.
now, on to your question--one of my best friends in college was from germany, literally, she grew up in frankfurt and the family moved here on a temporary visa--her dad worked for the german consulate. i hung out at her house all the time and loved her family and they loved me. i had nothing against them and they were germans who grew up in germany and were citizens of germany, not the US. if your oma is a nazi or supports the nazi way of thinking (and i'm not saying she is or does, this is merely a hypothetical) then i don't care if she's german, chinese, or martian, i have nothing good to say about her. it's not a question of her being a german by nationality, it's a question of what her values/beliefs are. they are good germans and bad germans, there are good jews and bad jews, there is good and bad in every nationality, culture, religion, etc.
i think, however, that the cloak of shame and guilt that hangs over germany is pretty permanent, at least for the next 200+ years, this atrocity is beyond words and no one should ever assume it will be forgotten and/or go by the wayside. as a human being who happens to be german, i have no problem with your oma or any other german, as a nation, i think the germans have committed a sin that will darn (that is supposed to say dam with an n at the end but it won't let me write that here) them for as long as the human race populates this planet.
idk if that answers your question, please feel free to ask more if you want more info.

Crystalina replied: Yes you answered my question but that only leaves me wondering about who you are mad at seeing as how that German Nation no longer exists.

I also understand how anyone German who is a Nazi is not someone you want to be around or agree with but with that there is also the fact that many people from many different backgrounds feel the same way. It is not really a Jewish thing but a human thing. Yes, Jewish people were the main target but me being a Puerto Rican would have been targeted just as quickly. There are many people walking around with there swatsitka tattooed for all to see. Some of them aren't even German and all of them (IMO only) are ignorant for flaunting what happend then and outwardly showing their support for hate to many races.

I was interrupted about 4 times while typing this so I hope it makes sense.

Thanks for the conversation and your insight into what you think.

cameragirl21 replied:
the german nation does exist...the waffen ss doesn't exist anymore, as in the nazi party was abolished (although it is sadly regaining steam in germany and other european nations) but the country that is called germany does still exist and the camps are still there and of course they are no longer in use (thank God) but the reality still exists. hitler btw was not a german, he was austrian, so it's really not just germany but he was elected to power in germany.
there are neo nazis today and many are not german, you are right. hatred still exists among humans, which is something that i cannot understand but it is very real. by keeping the memory of the holocaust alive, we remind ourselves and future generations of what human beings are capable of when we lose our sense of humanity and morality. this memory must be kept alive so these sorts of atrocities are not perpetuated again against any group of people or anyone at all. and as long as this memory is kept alive, people will look scornfully at germany, it's just par for the course.
as to the article, it merely proves that this was a true story in germany; it seems the german govt is doing something about it, which is a good thing. in as much as people may not like it, when germans do heinous things the holocaust is bound to come up as a comparison and point of reference, that too is par for the course.

gr33n3y3z replied:
then how can you make people understand it Jennifer


My sons GF is Jewish and she has never said she holds grudges of what happend in the past bc she is hurt by what happend but she wasnt here when it happend.

cameragirl21 replied:
it's a pretty heavy topic, Lisa, and not something we readily talk about, especially if your son's gf is the only Jew at the table! As for her not being here when it happened, as i mentioned previously, we speak of being slaves in egypt as if we personally were slaves when we celebrate Passover. the saying goes, "And every person shall tell the story of Passover as if s/he personally were freed from slavery...." i know it's confusing for those who are not Jewish, the culture and way of thinking really has some stark differences, which is largely why we don't often get into this topic unless we are amongst ourselves...if i were the only Jew at the table, i'd likely not want this brought up or to talk about it, it's a very difficult subject.
it's not something i meant to get into here, this whole thread unraveled from the original topic.
what i meant was that i don't have the schooling and/or knowledge to really explain it the way a rabbi could but i actually did a pretty good job...i gave a friend of mine who really knows a lot about Judaism and really studied a lot and she said i gave a really good explanation.

luvmykids replied:
Gotcha

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I just want to point out that it was the Nazi regime that perpatrated the holocaust not the German people there were horrifing things that were done to all who questioned Hitler's authority....That is NOT said to take away from the Jewish people and what crimes were commited against them but I know first hand accounts of what could have been done to my 'Tanta's' mother had she been caught allowing/arranging her daughters to flee Berlin. I do feel that this disgusting pamphlet was promilgated by a humanistic view of what is acceptable...and for those who don't realize the Dutch have a political party of confessed pedophiles that want to legalize this sort of 'touch' with children because sexuality is human nature It really has nothing to do with the Halocaust it has to do with some VERY sick people in power...I know they will have to answer for it one day........

cameragirl21 replied:
just for the record, i never said this particular pedophilic insanity had anything to do with the holocaust. i just said that whenever the german nation does something repugnant, the holocaust will always be brought up as a point of reference, in other words--if the germans could do that, why are you surprised they can do this.
that's all.
and again, i said i don't blame the german people, it's the german nation i take issue with in terms of crimes committed. the nazi regime btw was voted in to power by a majority of the people and got widespread support from the german people. that is not to say that there were no dissenters because of course there were but in principle, it was a regime supported by the majority of germans at the time.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Jennifer, no offense, but you are totally not understanding what I'm trying to say. Because I do not know how to say it any other way, I'll just let it lay to rest.

jcc64 replied: Wowsers, some pretty heavy stuff discussed here. I appreciate the opportunity to learn about ancient religious history- I must admit I'm a little ignorant in this area.
I really don't think it's up to us to tell someone that she does or doesn't have a right to harbor anger about atrocities commited against her ancestors. At the same time, I firmly believe that if we are sincere about our desire for peace among nations going forward, we should be looking for those things we have in common rather than things that divide us. Way back in the thread, the tenet about treating thy neighbor as thyself was raised as something that Judaism and Christianity have in common. I would go further by asserting that all the good things about organized religion- charity, compassion, forgiveness, redemption, etc.. are universal to all religions. If we could hang onto those ideas as opposed to clinging to the haunted memories of our darkest impulses, I think the world would be a more peaceful place. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem to work that way.

Crystalina replied:

I should have made more point to the word "that" in my sentence " that German Nation no longer exists."

my2monkeyboys replied: I don't think the German people are any more likely to do wrong/evil things than the rest of us are. Every country, race, nationality, religion, etc. have done things that were purely wrong and (hopefully) that they regret. I understand to a degree what Jennifer says about her never being able to forgive the country of Germany, but at the same time, if we hold that sort of feeling in and do not release it, it will make us worse for it.
One of the best and hardest aspects of most all religions is forgiveness. We must forgive those that wrong us, or it will harm US in the end.

This has been such an enthralling, educational discussion so far.....

By the way, is there anyone here that practices Judaism? I've always thought it was such a beautiful religion.

cameragirl21 replied:
you mean besides me?
just for the record, i AM a practicing Jew. i observe Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hoshana, etc. i just don't keep Shabbos in the sense that i do drive and work on Saturdays...no Orthodox Jew would do that.
i am a member of a synagogue and am fairly involved in the Jewish community. i am not extremely religious but definitely a practicing Jew...all of my children will attend Jewish schools.
btw, i see what you mean about the importance of forgiveness but i think people also have to understand that some crimes just cannot be forgiven. nor should they be forgiven. ever.
i think my biggest problem with it all is that i don't think the human race has really learned much from the past. look what recently happened in Yugoslavia...look at Darfur, look at how some people in the middle east are eager to strap bombs onto their kids to fight a "holy war"...i wish someone could explain to me what could possibly be holy about war...?

my2monkeyboys replied: Sorry Jennifer, I thought I typed "else" after "anyone"...
I agree about the holy wars. There is no discernible reason, to me anyway, as to why you would fight some one over religion/faiths. Most all religions (with the exception of some, I'm sure) teach love and forgiveness, not "kill them all until they believe the way we do." Even common sense would tell you that humans are looking for something that gives them peace. That they can trust and believe in, knowing that something higher and better is there. Fighting over it certainly won't cause someone to take on your faith, no matter what that person may say just to save their self. The phrase "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" certainly applies to religion.
As for forgiving people, it is one of the hardest things to do. I do think that we are supposed to try. As far as Christianity in concerned, if Jesus can forgive people regardless of what they do, then certainly we have to do our best.
I do think that forgiving people and simply pretending things didn't happen are 2 different things though. We have some family members that have repeatedly stolen from my parents, lied about them to other people for their own benefit, and more. My parents have decided to forgive them, as the family members have "changed," and they have began to let them come over again, hang out, that sort of thing. I have a problem with those members being at my parents home, though, bc it's like nothing ever happened, and I'm not so sure these 2 cousins have really changed at all.
I say all that to say this. I think we need to remember the past so as not to repeat it, but I think we have a God-directed order to forgive.

My3LilMonkeys replied:
Perhaps I'm just not understanding because I'm exhausted, but who do you consider to be the German nation if it's not the German people? Do you mean you blame the people/society as a whole, but not the individuals, or am I completely missing your meaning?

Either way, I appreciate all of the information you've shared with us about your culture and religion - it's been very interesting to me!

Bamamom replied: Okay - got to add my two cents, but before I do might I too applaud everyone for keeping this civil - yeah for us!!!!!

First of all - Yes the gospels were written after the death of Christ but the authors of the gospels did know Jesus personally. They were some of his disciples, walked and talked with him, and personally saw the miracles that he performed.

Secondly - Christian were first called Christians some time after Jesus's death by Paul - but I think calling the disciples Christians would be totally accurate as Christian simply means that a person believes that Jesus is God's son, that he died on a cross for our sins, that he was raised from the dead on the third day and ascended into heaven. The disciples and Jesus's other followers certainly believed that even though they technically didn't go by the name Christian.

I certainly think that Jennifer has the right to feel the way she feels - I might feel the same way if I were Jewish. The only problem I would have is if (and I can't get a read on if you are saying this or not Jennifer so forgive me - I'm just not sure exactly what you're saying on this point) she thinks that the whole world should share that view. Like we're bad people for not sharing that opinion.

I think that the Nazi philosophy - which was the official viewpoint of Germany and many other nations during WWII - is reprehensible. It's hard for me to even wrap my head around the fact that one human being could do those sorts of things to another human being. However I hold no ill feelings towards the German people or the German nation today.

Edited for clarity

cameragirl21 replied:
i blame germany as a nation, idk if that makes sense but you are right in that i don't blame the people individually. but as a nation, they bear the burden their past has carried over into the present and the future.
btw, i also will never own/drive a volkswagen because that is a company started by the nazis. it is not run by nazis today, obviously, but the company itself was started by the nazis and i will never own one out of principle.
btw, if anyone here owns a vw, please take no offense to this, this is not to stigmatize anyone who drives or owns one, this is just MY personal preference.

Bamamom replied:
You know I think the thing is we could all understand if you said that you hate the Nazis and most of us would say "Right on Sister - count me in.' But we're just not sure what you mean by German nation.

I know alot of people are asking you alot of questions at once. That is probably very difficult. I just want to say Kudos for answering our questions and trying to explain.

cameragirl21 replied:
ok, this is a bit hard for me because i really don't know what it is that is not understood. let's put it this way--you, Stephanie (willsmama) and I are all Americans. there are people out there who hate the USA but you, Stephanie and I do not constitute the USA, even though we are all Americans.
what i cannot forgive is the german nation as an entity that committed a horrible atrocity. does that make sense?
just as some blacks hold the American nation responsible for slavery, but they don't hold you or me or Stephanie responsible (i hope) because we are not personally responsible, or those who are a part of this nation today but as a part of this nation, we share the responsibility for our past, kwim? and we bear these burdens, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, we are still held responsible as a nation by some. you personally may not be resonsible but as an American, you benefit from certain things that took place in our nation's past, kwim? that said, our nation can be held responsible for things that you or I or Stephanie did not commit but we can be hated or held responsible as an entity that represents a deplorable crime from the past but not as individuals or even as individual Americans.
this is, i think, the biggest issue i have with terrorism--people are committing crimes against individuals against whom they have no realistic offense when their beef is with our govt and our nation as a whole, kwim?
idk if that made more sense or if it just made things more confusing.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:


This has gone soooo far off topic it is becoming a little ..... I understand crimes were commited by a party that once held power in Germany-the whole point was/is that crimes are being once again commited with sanction from another party that holds power there now.... If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it and IMO when things like what the original post was about are diluted in the soup of opinion and grudges (be they justifiable or not-NOT including the terrorists in that one) every child in the world comes into harms way....If we as parents/aunts/uncles/grandparents and generally decent people do not defend the most helpless of the world who is to say that when/if it is our children in danger from such atrocities there will be anyone left to help us defend them?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Just for the record, I'm, German, by birth.

I live in Canada, have Canadian citizenship. But I also have German citizenship.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Jennifer, I thought in another post you said you were not a relgious person and practicing Jew, just a Jew by birthright. Remember when Steph brought up the Catholic example, yada yada? Now, you say you are. Sorry, I'm confused as it seems contradicting.

Bamamom replied: But the government that held power at the time no longer exists. How is it fair to say that the German nation cannot be forgiven? That modern Germany must bear that burden.

Or to correlate it to America's past - I am a white American. When someone - black, white, or other, says that I have to bear the burden of what white American's once did to black American's I just don't get it. I think that line of thinking is just as bigotted - it's just reverse racism. Why hate me (or modern Germany, the German nation - phrase it how you will cause the bottom line is it all means the same thing) for something that I (or modern Germans) had nothing to do with. I DON'T feel that I share the responsibility for what happened to blacks during slavery as I find slavery repugnant and would never advocate it and hope that I would have actively worked against it. If Germany is making mistakes today (like this pamphlet) then dislike them for that - but I don't think it's fair to say that they have to suffer for the next "200+ years" for what happened under Hitler's rule.

cameragirl21 replied:
<sigh> what i said was that i am not extremely religious that is NOT the same as not being a practicing Jew and i never said i was a Jew just by birthright, please find where i said that.
and what Steph said in the catholic post is up to her, not me, her perception of me and/or my situation has nothing to do with me as she has never met me, nor does she know how i live my life.
i really hope i cleared that up for you and anyone else who was wondering.

cameragirl21 replied:
you may not feel you share the responsibility for slavery but many African Americans will say that you do.
i think tbh that people really will not understand this unless they are affected by it, this is the conclusion i've come to by reading some of these posts. you don't know what it is to be a Jew and have to live with what happened in your people's past and you (and i) don't know what it is to be black and be stigmatized when you walk down the street just for that.
i think you probably have to be in that minority in order to understand. i discussed this at length with a Jewish scholar yesterday and she said i'm wasting my time trying to explain this and that no one will understand.
idk if i'd call it a waste of time because i think knowledge is a good thing to share always but i do think you will probably not understand no matter how i explain it.
simply put--i am a Jew, i will never get over or forgive what was done to me for being a Jew, be it 60 years ago or 600 or in ancient times. my soul is Jewish, it transcends history, every Jewish soul was at Mt Sinai, we are all one, regardless of what lifetime we live in.
there is no redemption, the german entity will forever bear the burden of its past, whether the current generation participated in it or not. some scars will never be erased.
that doesn't mean, however, that a person living today who happens to be german is at fault or blamed because that is not the case at all. most of the germans i have met were really nice people...i will admit that the first thing i thought when i met them was, "wow, what a nice person, hard to believe his grandparents were probably nazis, hard to believe these people were once capable of this."
remember that generations change but culture is what it is, i don't think the european culture has changed very much at all in hundreds of years, even though obviously new generations replaced old ones. our culture is the same way, we are a much younger nation but if you travel internationally or live in 2 different continents as i have in my life, you'll see that cultures are very different from ours, ours is a rather unique culture and even though we personally didn't do things from our past, it IS a reflection of our culture as a nation if you kwim.

Boo&BugsMom replied: "i also want to say that i am not extremely observant, just very Jewish culturally"

luvbug00 replied: I must say jennifer , rather impressed with your VW history knolage seriously, not sarcasticly very impressed.

ps. My family has always owned vw's ,rabbits, and my mom has a bug named "Käfer" ( translation is beetle) my brothers car though not a vw is called "berlin7" ( no reason for the #, i suppose somone else has berlin on their plate as well)

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I hope some day you find it in your heart to forgive, Jennifer. I know you are young, but you have to learn that hanging on to that hatred for others is not healthy for you. You are only hurting yourself. Forgiving another person (or nation) does not affect the person you are forgiving, it only affects you and the way you live your life. By holding a grudge against Germans, you are no different than they were for holding a grudge and hating the Jews.

I've known a lot of Jews in my life and I've never met one who had the same hatred and unforgiveness in their hearts for the Germans (or German Nation) as you do. I've even known some holocaust survivors who found it in their hearts to forgive and forget.

I know this went really far off topic and I think it's okay for topics to do that sometimes. I think we learned a lot from this discussion, but when you stereotype someone, be prepared to be faced with a lot of questions. I do understand what you are trying to say and I know that you are very loyal to your culture/religion/beliefs, but you can still forgive and be loyal to what you believe. There are a lot of people who hold grudges and harbor resentment in this world. They are angry people looking for excuses to blame others for what they don't have. You don't want to live with a chip on your shoulder and for others to see you that way.

cameragirl21 replied:
Aimee, just for the record, i never said i hate germans, i just said that i do not forgive their nation and i assure you that no holocaust survivor ever will, regardless of what they may have said to you or the impression you may have gotten from them. and no one will ever forget, if you ever got the impression that any holocaust survivor does or ever will forgive and forget, you definitely misunderstood. some things should never be forgotten and can never be forgiven, no matter how much time passes.
and Jennie, i do hope you understand the difference between being not very observant and being Jewish in name only. and being culturally Jewish is in itself being a practicing Jew. it is very rude to imply that someone is not Jewish enough for you or something to that effect, i hope you understand that.
i have no problem whatsoever answering anyone's questions, as i said in the past, i am happy to do so.
i think however, that these questions should be intelligent in nature and should be asked for the purpose of learning and not to accuse someone. i really hate when people speak of things they know nothing about.
ETA--i just want to add that i do not harbor resentment per se, i just do not forgive. i guess the best way to explain this that imagine a mother whose child was kidnapped and harmed, like the case of Jimmy Rice here in S Florida. He was kidnapped at the bus stop and is no longer living due the actions of his kidnapper (i won't go into details because they are upsetting and i am trying to word this carefully but i think you all get what i am trying to say about what happened to Jimmy Rice). His mother may have had more children and may have learned to move on and find joy in her life but she will never forgive and forget, nor should she. when a people are targetted for extinction for nothing that they've done but simply because of what they believe in (and btw, atheists were thrown into ovens right next to Orthodox) and/or what culture/faith they were born into and the world did not intervene, there can never be forgiveness.
the german nation should not ask for forgiveness, they should simply help to build understanding among peoples so that these things can never happen again. the past cannot be undone but if we can learn from it and keep the memory alive, we can hopefully make the future better for future generations. that is why movies like "Schindler's List" are made...not to change the past or to try to make anyone feel guilty but rather to hope that those of us who watch this movie can know better for our future. i guarantee you, btw, that the german nation felt guilty while watching this movie, whether they were personally involved, or not. there is a veil of guilt that hangs over them.
i also want to add that i firmly believe that the son is NOT responsible for the sins of the father, that is to say if my parents did something bad i cannot be blamed or faulted for their actions but the shame of what they did would still be smeared on me, even if i did not do anything wrong.
as an aside to the above point, hitler had no children but he did have nephews who refused to reproduce, they did NOT want to pass these genes on, or this burden.

Cece00 replied: Do you KNOW every Holocaust survivor doesnt forgive? Have you spoken to every single one alive? There might be some people big enough to forgive out there. I dont know a holocaust survivor, otherwise I certainly would ask.

And do you know if EVERY Jew feels the way you do? I grew up with a good Jewish friend and I never heard her (or her mother and father) express her hatred for the "german nation" nor did I ever hear her (or her mother or father) say they are "eternally suffering" for things that happened to their ancestors and we HAVE discussed religion. Her mother used to sub @ our school (a private school) and we would talk about religion with her.

I am still going with the fact that I PERSONALLY feel it takes away from people who TRULY suffered by saying "I am suffering too, for all eternity" (general I).

You can be under the incorrect assumption that I dont "understand" but I have both acadian AND native american ancestors and they each had their own tradgedies as far as being persecuted, most especially the native americans. I really feel for people who had to go through that, but I dont feel like I am suffering because of what happened to them, and I would PERSONALLY feel like I was really taking away from the true suffering of people who were imprisoned for no reason, tortured, murdered, etc by saying "Yeah, I will suffer forever..." for what happened to them.

Now if your religion believes that, well, who I am I to say "That's wrong.", which is why I said that I PERSONALLY feel thay way, because obviously not everyone is going to agree. I just think that is a hard way to live life. Even though I dont know if I really believe every Jewish person believes that. Perhaps I will go and find out if my friends mother believes that. Perhaps not.

But I agree with this:

>>Forgiving another person (or nation) does not affect the person you are forgiving, it only affects you and the way you live your life. By holding a grudge against Germans, you are no different than they were for holding a grudge and hating the Jews.

Food for thought.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

me too!


Once again it was NOT only the Jewish people who suffered at the hands of the Nazis and NOT the Nazis who were the FIRST to target the Jews (think Romans-from B.C. to A.D) So if you harbor a grudge against the German nation so should you against people of Roman decent or decendants of coutries that were once controlled by Rome (which includes most of Europian nations today and then some.) This OP was NOT about the halocaust....I know this is not the first post that has somehow turned into such a debate but as I said before-the real issue is what is going on NOW....we can't change the past but we CAN affect the future.


Just for intrest (and so we all talk about stuff we know about)...here is a link to some info on the Halocaust and the Nazi party. I think many people will find it interesting to read some of the laws they enacted...animal protection programs,enviromental programs who knew? I think the philosiphy of this sect was insane and barbaric-just so nobody questions that......
Nazi policies

edited for clarity in a sentence...

cameragirl21 replied: this thread is really unravelling and it was all going so well up until fairly recently. CeCe, suffice it to say that once again, your post simply shows your lack of understanding. be careful when you speak of these things to others, you will offend many.
ignorance is something we should all fight against which is why i'm willing to answer anyone's questions. as long as they're not asked to inflame, accuse, or insult, i am game.
however, this thread has really taken a downturn and i feel that unless someone has something new to add or ask we should all just put it to rest.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I NEVER assumed anything or accused, please do not put words in my mouth, for I hate it when people do THAT! I only asked because it was confusing and it sounded contradicting. Around here (please also remember that different parts of the world/states take things to mean different things ), when someone says "culturally" around here they usually mean heritage, not practicing! Just because YOU think it means something different, don't assume everyone considers it the same thing. Nobody accused anyone, if that is how you took it then that is your issue, not mine. Please remember, I am also a Jew by heritage. Around here when someone is, we usually say we are Jewish culturally, which means non-practicing, just by blood. If it's any other way it's usually stated that someone is Jewish religiously, not any other way. Also, the reason I brought up Steph's example is because she was comparing it with what you were saying and you agreed, which is what lead me to ask what I did.

my2monkeyboys replied: I think the time has come to close this thread, as it is getting more personal than it should, I think.
Although it turned into something other than what the OP was about, I want to thank everyone who participated, as I've learned much.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: It's okay to have an opinion you guys. When you ask someone of their religious beliefs be prepared to get their opinion in return. Because that's what it is, an opinion...very rarely true facts are involved when discussing things of this nature. Please keep in mind that some people's perception of things can be different than others.

Be open to learning, teaching and discussing, but do not accuse or condescend.

luvmykids replied:
I hope I don't stir the pot here, I think what some are getting at is that it's hard to understand how any one person can speak for an entire group of people regarding how they feel about another group of people, kwim? I'm sure you have basis for what you're saying about how other Jews feel but at the same time surely there is the possibility that some small percentage, maybe even only a handful, may feel differently. Does that make sense? I don't think anyone is meaning to say that you don't know what you're talking about, only that they may have heard differently from others, which I can take their word on. It may contradict what you believe they feel, but nonetheless, none of us can speak for an entire group of people with 100% certainty.

I don't know if I helped, I was just hoping to clarify where some of the questions came from.

cameragirl21 replied:
i promised myself i would not respond to this but i just want to say that being Jewish culturally is WAY more than having a drop of Jewish blood in you. It is the way you live your life. Judaism is not just a religion, it is a way of life.
having some Jewish lineage or heritage makes one no more Jewish than being the great great great grandchild of Einstein makes one a genius.
unless you have a Jewish mother or are a converted Jew then you are not Jewish, not culturally, not religiously, not at all. incidentally, having a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother does not make you Jewish, even if you practice Judaism as a religion exclusively, unless you converted.
if you have a Jewish mother but chose to become a Christian, Buddhist, or anything else as a religion, you are ethnically Jewish but not culturally or religiously Jewish. Culturally Jewish refers to the way we live our lives, our priorities, our ethics, the way we raise our children, our customs, etc. it is NOT a reference to having semitic blood.
that is all i wanted to say on the subject so as to clear up any misunderstandings that anyone may have. i may sound a bit testy but really, i am not upset and am happy to answer any more questions anyone may have.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Jennifer, that is exactly what I am talking about. Just because where YOU are people see it that way, doesn't mean where I live everyone sees it that way as well. Did you not read what I wrote clearly? AROUND HERE, terms are not used the same way as you exlpained them, which is why I asked what I did. You are taking it way further than what I am saying. The terms/words are used differently around here, please understand that!

And PLEASE do not discredit my Jewish heritage. I am very proud of it! The comparison about Einstein does not hold any water compared to something that is in your blood.

cameragirl21 replied:
you are not stirring the pot, Monica, you are asking very intelligent and thoughtful questions.
here's the thing--education and discussion and learning in general about the holocaust is considered integral in Jewish culture. a lot of study has been done, many books have been written, many holocaust survivors have spoken out. there is a consensus of opinion, at least where holocaust surivors and the holocaust in general are concerned.
could you have a Jew living in Siberia that happens to be born to a Jewish mother but never stepped out of his igloo (this is btw said in jest, Siberians do not live in igloos for the most part, lol) and never spoke to another Jew in his life that *maybe* doesn't share this opinion? possibly, but not likely.
Jews in principle love debate, we love intellectual exchanges and mental exercises and i assure you that if you go to a Jewish home and sit at their table and there are at least 4 Jewish adults at the table and they are not debating some topic (not in a mean, angry way but having a deep intellectual discussion) then you are not among Jews! every Passover, every holiday we talk about these things and there is often not consensus BUT where the holocaust is concerned there is little debate. The only debate on the holocaust issue i've ever heard is that some Jews believe it should be central to Jewish education and some believe it should be somewhat more visceral but not entirely visceral. some Jews drive german cars (i used to drive a BMW) whereas others never will. i will never drive a VW but i know Jews who do. the level of what we find tolerable varies but our overall outlook on the holocaust issue is a consensus and i assure you the only holocaust survivor you will ever find who *may* forget is one who has gone completely senile and does not have the capacity to remember. something like this you cannot just forget and no one can forgive.
the germans i've spoken to (who were born and raised in germany, not german americans) have all said that in germany there is a collective guilt about the holocaust, even though today's germans are not the perpetrators. idk if that is true for ALL germans, probably isn't because there are skinhead parties there today but it is what i've heard from every german born german (who grew up in germany).
i do not speak for all Jews, there is no doubt about that, but like i said, on the holocaust issue there is a consensus and i suppose it's possible that some remote Jew out there thinks differently but it's unlikely, unless that person has no Jewish education and no ties to the Jewish community and has never had a sufficient amount of holocaust education.
however, i want to stress that my initial post about this and my feelings on the holocaust were only meant to represent my thoughts, i wasn't trying to bring all Jews into this, i am only speaking from the extensive holocaust education and time i've spent with survivors that i have had.
i might also tell an interesting story here--there was a nazi soldier on his deathbed and he wanted to be forgiven so he called a holocaust survivor to his bedside and pleaded for forgiveness so that he may die in peace. he said he was sorry, went on and on and begged the Jew to give him peace and the holocaust survivor quietly, without saying a word got up and left the dying man...he did not forgive.
some things cannot be forgiven.

cameragirl21 replied:
well, i don't really care what people say "around there" Jewish culture is defined and not up for interpretation based on the opinions of those who think that having a drop of Jewish blood in them makes them Jewish. it does not.
what if someone told you that s/he is a Christian but doesn't believe in Jesus or accept him as their savior...their definition of being a Christian is that s/he has driven by a church once and seen a cross on top of it. and that around his neighborhood, that was enough to make one a Christian.
would you buy it? would you accept it?
edit because i only just now saw your comment about Einstein...do you think that being the great great great grandchild of Einstein is not a matter of blood? how exactly do you think genetics works?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
AGAIN, you have NO CLUE as to what I am saying!!! Please note that not everyone everywhere sees things the way you do. You seem to have little tolerance for people who do not see things through your eyes only, and I am saddend that a small question had to be turned into such a personal attack with discrediting someone's heritage, when all you had to do was explain things and leave it at that.

TheOaf66 replied:
well I tried to stay out of this but I have to mention that comparing the statement "having a drop of Jewish blood makes you Jewish" to being a christian is apples and oranges. Having a drop of Jewish blood is your physical heritage or descendency not your religion...Christianity is not a physical "race" or ethnicity. I believe it was you who agreed that Jewish ethnicity and religion are two different things

In my opinion being Jewish culturally and being Jewish
religiously are 2 different things. Kind of along the
same lines of someone being raised in Catholicism, but
never practicing it. They still may say, I'm catholic,
but in truth it's what they were born in to
family-wise, not really a religious choice they have
made.
True.

I am not disputing other points but this one IMO cannot be compared.

Crystalina replied:
That's what I'm trying to say. Let sleeping dogs lie. Learn from what happend. Mourn the losses. Tell the kids and grandkids about it. Visit the museum. Get your bracelet with Holocaust victim's name. Educate yourself and remember what happend but move on. That's what transgression is all about. That's what life is all about. Jennifer has a right to be upset yes, that is her right. IMO and IMO only I could not do that.

to you Jennifer and no hard feelings for my opinion I hope.

luvbug00 replied: I must say that everyone has different deffintions of what defines us in religon and herritage. i have plenty of jewish friends and i myself wanted to convert some years back. ( tattoos not favored ) the jewish people are proud and protective of their religon but they are also NOT the type to deny their own no matter what the level of practice is. ( or says the rabbi i spoke to). If you compleate the conversion prossess you are seen as a member of the community as if you were there by birth. So to say that having jewish blood doesn't make you a jew is compleately incorrect.

luvbug00 replied: You also may disregard my statement regarding the WW2 comments i made but let me assure you that although i am by legality latina in color and blood. I was raised with many german values and emerced in the culture since i came here. That is why I get along with Lars so well. i cook the german food he is fimiliar with and the follow the same german rules with parenting. With my family being as such i speak very firmly in their defence and especially when it is assumed that because one bad apple fell off the tree that not all the fruit is as sour.

cameragirl21 replied:
no hard feelings, Crystal, you like anyone else are certainly entitled to disagree with me. i don't like when people bring up things to accuse, inflame, or stir up trouble.
let me reiterate one more time for anyone who didn't get it that being Jewish culturally is not just a matter of having a Jewish relative. It is the way we live our life, religion is part of it but only a part of it, it's a piece of the larger picture.
i hope that cleared it up for anyone who wasn't sure.
Culture, by definition
cul·ture (klchr) KEY

NOUN:


The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.
-----------------
so if you don't like that definition, you'll have to take it up with American Heritage dictionary, i didn't make it up but it sums up what i mean by Jewish culture vs having a drop of Jewish blood in your veins.

luvmykids replied: I think some people are confused about and/or using "culture" and "ethnicity" interchangeably

cameragirl21 replied:
this is true, if you convert you are one of us as if you were born that way.
but your own point proves that having Jewish blood does not make you a Jew and that rabbi i'm sure will tell you that in order to be born Jewish you must have come from the womb of a Jewish woman. that is where the bloodline lies. having a Jewish father is completely discounted.
although i know people who consider themselves Jews and have a Jewish father but not a Jewish mother and they practice Judaism and while *i* consider them Jews, most Jews don't.
to me, if you want to be Jewish and want to say you're a Jew, then you're a Jew to me. but you cannot claim to be a Jew and follow Christian or Buddhist or muslim dogma.
in other words, if you say you are a Jew then you should be faithful to the relion...someone who goes to church and prays to Jesus is NOT a Jew. plain and simple.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
THIS is what I asked for to begin with! Thank you! If this would have been said to begin with than the last 2 pages could have been avoided. All you had to do is say "by culturally this is what I mean.....", because we use the term differently here.

holley79 replied: This is the first time I have read this and I am seriously ill.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
It still makes him a relative, but it doesn't mean you are smart, which is what your point was in using the comparison.

luvbug00 replied: ethnic deffinition quite different

Ethnic group
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Ethnicity)
Jump to: navigation, search
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, either on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry[1], or recognition by others as a distinct group[2], or by common cultural, linguistic, religious, or territorial traits.[1] Processes that result in the emergence of such identification are summarized as ethnogenesis. Members of an ethnic group, on the whole, claim cultural continuities over time, although historians and anthropologists have documented that many of the cultural practices on which various ethnic groups are based are of relatively recent invention. [3]

The term is used in contrast to race, which refers to a classification of physical and genetic traits perceived as common to certain groups


jewish/jew
A Jew (Hebrew: יְהוּדִי, Yehudi (sl.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.); Ladino: ג׳ודיוס, Djudios; Yiddish: ייִד, Yid (sl.); ייִדן, Yidn (pl.))[1] is a member of the Jewish people who are an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East. The Jewish people or the Jewish nation also consists of others who converted to Judaism throughout the millennia. The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts are both included and have been absorbed within the Jewish people.


and finally
her·i·tage(hr-tj)
n.
1. Property that is or can be inherited; an inheritance.
2. Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.
3. The status acquired by a person through birth; a birthright: a heritage of affluence and social position.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*wiki and fee online dictionary* all talk of birthright. so i stand by my statement that having jewish blood ( yes, i knew it had to be by the mother) makes you a part of that religon.

cameragirl21 replied:
possibly, but culture and ethnicity are not the same.
i am realizing that this must be hard for some people to understand. Monica, you, for instance, are a Christian and as i understand it (i presume you to be Protestant but correct me if i'm wrong) in order to be a Christian you must ask Jesus for salvation or something to that effect and that is what makes you a Christian. there is no ethnicity, there is no particular culture, it is strictly a question of belief.
in Judaism, it is not like that at all. There are Jews who are atheists but they are active in the Jewish community and participate in Jewish culture. That alone makes them Jewish...they are no less Jewish than i am even though i do practice.
here is another side of it, and i suspect this may make people even more confused--when you speak of Jewish blood, it's to say that Jews marry and have children with other Jews (not always, there is intermarriage) and therefore there is a purity of blood. as a result, there are Jewish genetic diseases, like Tay Sachs for instance. That said, when you speak of Jewish blood, it's a reference to this blood purity, this is NOT meant to say pure blood as being superior, it's just to say that when two people breed from the same genetic line, there is what is called blood purity. so when we as Jews speak of Jewish blood, that is what we refer to, it's not to say that if we take my blood and yours, Monica, that mine will be any different. it's really a question of DNA more than anything else.
as far as ethnicity goes, DNA tests have proven that Israeli Jews are genetically identical to middle east arabs which proves 2 things--one is that today's Jews are definitely related to ancient Jews and there has been little genetic mixing over the millenia, meaning Jews have kept their blood pure. (again, this is NOT to say that a Jew and a non Jew making a baby makes that baby impure, it's a question of genetics and really interbreeding when you come to think of it. the other thing it proves is that Jews and arabs really are probably the same ethnicity--semitic. so it's not so much a matter of being ethnically Jewish, it's a matter of being ethnically semitic, so if you have a relative way back who was Jewish, it means you have some semitic heritage, and nothing more.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I really couldn't agree more Holley!

gr33n3y3z replied: Ok everyone this is done