What is her deal?

PrairieMom wrote: now Ally wont nurse. I fought with her all last night before finally giving her a bottle of EBM which she was very happy to get. This morning I fought with her again. She just flat out won't latch on. she screams and screams, crys real tears and turns all red. I finally gave in and gave her some more EBM, and she took 6 ounces like she was starving.
Now, I checked, and she isn't teething, and we are on our last day of Gentian violet and her thrush spots are all gone. I haven't changed soap or perfume or anything like that. so what is her deal? is it normal for babys to decide they don't want to nurse anymore? is this just a phase?

MyLuvBugs replied: UGH....Lorelei did that b/c my letdowns were making her choke. Doesn't sound like that's your prob though. Hopefully it's just a phase....if anything just pump and give that to her. pumped BM is better than nothin'. Hope you get it figured out soon.

holley79 replied: I'm sorry she is giving you a fit Tara. Maybe she has figured out the breast is too much work and she is happier with the EBM in a bottle.

msoulz replied: My son did the same thing, although I don't remember when. I was working full time and pumping and he was getting EBM all week. He started to refuse to nurse except at night, so I just pumped and pumped for months it seems. I think what Holley said is true, or was true for my son - it was just quicker and easier from the bottle. I don't know if you are working or not, just my own experience!

PrairieMom replied: I just gave Ally another bottle feeding. She just won't have anything to do with my breast. I really wasn't prepared for this feeling of total rejection that I am feeling right now. We were such a good nursing pair, and today has been so difficult. I am thinking that my supply is down again and maybe that is what is making her mad? I'm off to the health food store for some fenugreek. I couldn't possibly drink any more water.

coasterqueen replied: Has she been getting a lot of bottles lately? Babies do this often because they realize they can get milk faster from a bottle than a breast. Is the nipples on the bottles slow flow nips or faster? That creates a problem too. Both my girls went through phases like this and it's VERY common. It's not the end of BF, unless you make it, i.e. give bottles to substitute the breast. She WILL come back to nursing and won't starve until she does. Trust me, I have been where you are. I don't know how to explain it or reassure you that things will be ok. More than likely your production has slowed down to match her need and so the flow isn't as fast or heavy as it once was. She's being 'stubborn' in a sense because she got used to the way it was and now it's not and she wants it back. Was that how it was? The fast flow or 'over' production?

She really will be ok But I will be honest in saying the more bottles you give her the more likely she will wean. I know how hard it is to feel rejected and to worry about is she getting enough. Oh have I been there. She will be ok though .

PrairieMom replied: Actually with DH gone this past week she has been getting less bottles. I have been offering her the breast, and when she refuses, I give her a bottle. I know that the nipples we are using have a faster flow for her, but they are the only ones that she will take. They are still the 0-3 month slower flow ones tho. I haven't moved up to the bigger ones yet.
I am thinking that she gets more milk faster with the bottles, and she is liking that.
I got some fenugreek to boost my supply for her, and I am going to try stimulating my milk before I latch her to see if that helps a little. and I have a call into my LC for advice.
I'm not giving up on this yet, although , it is getting very frusterating.
The last time my supply was low I was on my period, and now it is a little low again, and I am ovulating. could that have anything to do with it?

coasterqueen replied: Chances are it's a combo of her liking the faster flow from the bottle and yes, ovulation and AF can decrease supply. I have had this problem LOTS WORSE with Megan than with Kylie. There are things to do to help, though. I take a calcium/magnesium supplement as well as a high dose of evening primrose during ovulation and AF. This helps with the pain I get during those times as well as my supply.

PrairieMom replied: I finally got her to latch. Little stinker. Last night she just latched on like nothing ws going on. What ever. I don't pretend to understand that kid. The whole thing has made me realize that our frozen milk supply is't quite where it should be, and no I know that under no circumstances will she take formula, ( picky little eater) so I guess some good has come out of the whole thing. As much as I hate it, I am going to have to be better about pumping. I moved my pump down to the computer room, and guess what I am doing right now?

KeanusMomma replied: Remember that the more milk she eats, the more you make. Giving her bottles will only decrease the milk supply. But at least it's ebm, not formula! Keep up the good bf work.

luvbug00 replied: Aww Tara Hope Ally sticks to the bb this time

PrairieMom replied: Well, we are back on strike. I am trying to just go with the flow and not stress over it, but Good grief. So, I'm hooked up to the pump again, trying to keep up. My LC was absolutely NO help. Her answer was " well My kids never did that so I don't really know what to tell you. " Nice. Kellymom was way more help than she was. Also, she has no idea what kellymom is.
She said that what I was doing sounded good and to keep it up. Hopefully things will streighten up in a week or so. Great. Just in time for vacation. I really don't want to be dealing with this stuff while I am on vacation.

coasterqueen replied: Well IMO I'd find another LC, one more qualified. I'd say I was more qualified than her. What advice, OMG I would have tore her a new one if she said that to me. She's DEFINITELY not certified and if she is I'd call the ILBC (?) whatever that's called where they are certified and REPORT her.

Anyways she probably doesn't know about kellymom unless she does a lot of consulting online or does any research online. Obviously she hasn't.

I stand by my original answer to this. I think she's fine. Can you tell me, is she having enough wets and poos? Is she nursing AT ALL? If so what times and how long..both sides or just one? How many bottles is she getting and how many ounces?

Some babies do like to refuse the breast during ovulation and AF. Megan is one of them. When I started taking the primrose oil and cal/mag pills things got somewhat better.

Hang in there.

PrairieMom replied: Yeah, i know, i am totally underwhelmed with my LC. Unfortunately she is my friend, and we have a child care agreement with each other. Ive gone to her 3 times now and she hasn't helped once. And acutally Karen, you have been TONS more help than she has.
Right now Ally is nursing and bottleing about 50-50. when she bottles she is taking 4-5 ounces at a time. she's eating about every 4 hours durrinng the day and every 2-3 hours at night. Yester day we had 2 or 3 huge diaper buster poos. She doesn't seem to be as wet as before, but she is still having wet diapers. I'm not really sure how many. They all blur together after a while.

My lovely LC suggested that the next time Ally refuses the breast to not offer a bottle and keep offering the breast until she finally gets hungry enough to take it. I'll give that a try, but I am not into starving my kid, so I don't know how long I will let her fuss. I know that Offering the bottle more will not encourage Ally to want to nurse more.

coasterqueen replied:
This is actually good advice, and what I've recommended and have done myself in the past. It does work, it's not starving them, and yes...it is stressful to do. I also think when you are giving her the bottle that is only confusing the situation. She may have nipple confusion to be quite honest. Some babies get confused when mom nursed them and gives a bottle, especially if they like the flow from the bottle more. I never gave Kylie a bottle, well I take that back, I gave her one at church one time and never again - so we never had nipple confusion. I have had to give Megan a couple of bottles when DH was in Louisianna that three months and thank goodness she didn't have issues going back and forth.

So there are a world of issues going on here not helping the situation. Not trying to be tasteless in what I'm saying here, just trying to help and be honest. I honestly think you might end up bottle feeding full time if some of these issues don't get resolved. It's very hard for me to give a full assessment without seeing her in 'action' and such, but when trying to evaluate a situation like this you have to take into account all factors and all of them lead me to believe the more she's bottle fed the less likely she'll nurse for very much longer. I hope I'm proven wrong, though.

PrairieMom replied: I know. I totally agree with you. Unfortunately since I have to work I have to keep giving her bottles, I don't have another option. Originally we were only giving her bottles for her bedime feeding, well, and at night when I was at work. DH brings her to me to nurse durring the day.

I'm gonna fight her on this strike thing, I really want to keep up the nursing, but I don't want feedings to be a negative experieance either, so I guess I will just have to play it by ear. Pumping and botteling is going to be a huge PITA, and its going to be way harder to deal with our thrush issue and all that. If I can't get her nursing, I can totally see us just going to formula and not bothering with the whole thing.

AUGH! the frusteration!

coasterqueen replied:
Is Dh giving her the bottles or are you? When I spoke of nipple confusion I was assuming YOU were giving some of the bottles. If I'm wrong than I correct myself. There is nipple confusion for babies that get a bottle from someone else, don't get me wrong and it happens all the time. I was thinking it was you giving the bottle and that makes nipple confusion that much more.

Let me know and we can go from there.

PrairieMom replied: He gives them, but when she has been on strike I have been giving about half of them.

coasterqueen replied: Ok....there are so many variables here it's really tough without assessing in person, so I apologize if I'm pulling rabbits out of the hat here making you confused.

Ok, I'm going to go research your past BF posts to give me more history and I'll come back with questions and lets see what direction we can take.

coasterqueen replied: Ok, I've looked at your old posts and well, I'm just going to ask a TON of questions here you can answer or not, and lets see. And please forgive me if they are questions I've already asked.

1. She's just about 4 months old right?
2. Is she teething? Any possibility of it at all?
3. She was only getting bottles from Dh before the 'strike' and routinely only because you were working (i.e. you weren't anywhere around when she was getting them)?
4. You started giving her 1/2 the bottles she's getting now when she went on strike?
5. You mentioned in previous posts you weren't pumping much. How many hours are you gone from her while at work and how many times and how long are you pumping while gone?
6. Being all that said about work are you working daily? Give me a run down on your work schedule and when she's getting bottles (i.e daily even if you aren't working, etc).
7. You mentioned before she wouldn't take the lowest slow flow nipples (which I think are "0", right? Or maybe they are "1"'s, I'd have to look when I get home)? Can you elaborate more, she just flat out refused the slowest flow, but the next flow she'd take?

There are so many things this could be.

A. It could be teething. Babies who are experiencing pain from teething will go quickly to a bottle over nursing because the mechanics of getting the milk out of the breast are harder and honestly if their teeth are hurting bottles are much less 'painful' from them to get the milk from.

B. It could be nipple confusion and coupled with getting more bottles now and from you could be making the situation worse.

C. Nursing strikes don't happen as much at this age and if so it's usually because they don't like the flow of which they are getting milk at.

D. Along with C and B, it could be because your supply has regulated and therefore she's not used to the slower flow of your milk (coming out of breast) causing her to be "stubborn".

E. Your supply - if you aren't pumping when she's missing feedings (i.e. getting a bottle instead) your supply will dip and that could be adding to the frustration of hers....and yours.

Are you confused yet?

PrairieMom replied: Karen, you are so good to be putting this much time in to helping me. I really apprecieate it.

1. She's just about 4 months old right?

Yup.


2. Is she teething? Any possibility of it at all?

I don't think so. The Boy didnt get teeth until he was 10 months, I know I can't compare the 2. LOL. I have checked her mouth and her gums aren't red or bumpy or anything like that.

3. She was only getting bottles from Dh before the 'strike' and routinely only because you were working (i.e. you weren't anywhere around when she was getting them)?

Yes, when I was working, but she also gets a bottle every night as part of her night time routine. Usually I would be in the house doing other things.


4. You started giving her 1/2 the bottles she's getting now when she went on strike?

Yeah.

5. You mentioned in previous posts you weren't pumping much. How many hours are you gone from her while at work and how many times and how long are you pumping while gone?

I leave the house at 6:00 PM, and get home around 7:30 am. I nurse her jsut before I leave and usually ri`ght away when I get home. At work I pump around 11:00, for about 45 mintues and usually get about 7 or 7 ounces, then again around 5 or so and get 6 or 7 ounces.


6. Being all that said about work are you working daily? Give me a run down on your work schedule and when she's getting bottles (i.e daily even if you aren't working, etc).

I work every other weekend, fri, sat sun nights. so 6 nights a month. when i work she nurses at 5:30 before i leave, gets a bottle at 9ish, 2, 6, and nurses when i get home, then she nurses again at 11, 1, and 4. give or take a little. when she bottles she takes 4-6 ounces. when she nurses it is usually for 20-30 min when i am awake. when i am asleep i latch her on and we nap together, so i really have no idea how long.


7. You mentioned before she wouldn't take the lowest slow flow nipples (which I think are "0", right? Or maybe they are "1"'s, I'd have to look when I get home)? Can you elaborate more, she just flat out refused the slowest flow, but the next flow she'd take?

right now she takes the 0-3 nuk style gerbers. they are the only kind she will take. the flow is faster than the conventional style nipples. when you tip the bottle milk basically runs out.












i'm not confused at all. I'm totally withyou. I'm pumping 1/2 an hour on both sides with a medela every time she bottles to keep my supply up. i also started some fenugreek am eating my oatmeal and drinking drinking drinking.

This morning i am wondering if maybe she has an ear infection or something like that that would make it uncomfortable for her to suck/swallow too. So far today the nursing has been going good, but I'm gonna call the ped if things go bad again. If she's getting sick I want to know before we leave on vacation next week.

coasterqueen replied: Well ear infection could cause pain latching, but I'm thinking, and don't quote me on this, that it would be painful to take a bottle as well....but not as much obviously because of the sucking mechanism differences.

I'm stumped. I say that because she wasn't getting bottles enough to really cause nipple confusion ALTHOUGH it only takes one bottle to get nipple confusion BUT (man this is a long sentence, lol) in my experience NC happens fairly quickly and it seems she's been taking a bottle for awhile just fine before, right? So, I hate to state this, but I might rule out the nipple confusion....for now.

AF/ovulation could play a HUGE part in this because it does for Megan, I know that. Let's keep an eye on this, obviously, noting how she acts when you aren't ovulating/having AF. Or do you know if she's done this is previous months around the same exact time...although she's not that old really. I think to rule this out it might take a few months of really noting her behaviours. One thing I did for the first 6 months of Kylie's life was to keep a journal of their odd behaviours, times, circumstances, dates, etc...to help me determine certain things.

Teething could play a huge role in her behavior as well, but since you don't think it's that...that makes diagnosing more difficult.

With the nips you are describing...and if your supply has regulated this could be it for sure.

I hate to say this, but I think til you can monitor her behavior more and over the next few weeks to a month (i.e. meaning af and ovulation) it might be hard to pin point things. Obviously you want to watch her wets, poos, and IMO I'd see that LC friend of yours to have her weighed. She does have a scale doesn't she? One thing my LC did with me is have me come in when I knew it was time for Kylie to nurse (and Megan as well). She'd weigh her, then I'd nurse her, then she'd weigh her again. The LC did this to see how many ounces (roughly) the baby was getting in a feeding. This can help "loosely" determine if you are having supply issues. You don't want to go at the first of the day feeding, IYKWIM. Like if I took Megan in there first thing in the morning after she hasn't nursed for 4 or 5 hours my BB's are a bit more full than say a mid-morning or afternoon feeding. I think I'd try to have this done....just to see, but you are getting great output, pumping adequate times and lengths of time so I just don't see this as a problem. If anything to do with your supply it would be regulation of it and that means the flow isn't as fast as the bottle nipple flow.

So, summing things up here, I don't think I've really helped you all that much except to tell you that keep a close eye on her, try not to give her bottles when you are there (i.e. nurse, if she won't then try to wait it out til she will) and try not to stress until we can see if there is a pattern.

coasterqueen replied: Oh and how is the yeasty beast doing? I dare say this can play a role in things, because unless she has sores in her mouth still IMO it would be painful to take a bottle as well (not as much) but I'm just not thinking it's that.

PrairieMom replied: You have been a greathelp, even if you don't have answers. We are just finishing up anothter 3 day round of GV. Although I think the GSE worked to stave things off for a few days for me. My Nips are still abit sore from the whole thing. pluss her latching , pulling un latching, screaming, latching...
She hasn't seemed to have mouth pain from thrush before, I catch it pretty early, but ya never know.
I'll keep a better watch on her with my cycles and all that and see what I can figure out.
Thanks again for all your help. I really apprecieate it. You are awesome.

coasterqueen replied:
You are welcome. I just wish I could give you a plain and simple solution. That's what makes it difficult to help someone online w/o being there to assess the situation. And of course I don't know all so that doesn't help helping others out either .

and KMP.

KeanusMomma replied: Just to throw in my $.02...I thought of 2 things reading that just now. Forgive me if I've suggested it already. One is maybe going to an LLL meeting would help, so that other experienced mommas can see you in action. Two, maybe it's the nursing position she doesn't like. Is she getting bottles and nursies in the same position? If so, then that's prob not it, but if it is the problem you could prob tell by switching up the position a little. Do it laying down, sitting up, with you on your back so she's facing down, get creative.

PrairieMom replied: I never really figured out what her deal was. We have been doing great for the past few days. That girl is a mystery to me. She has to keep me on my toes! I think she was just not getting the flow she wanted. Maybe she's finally going through a growth spurt or something.

holley79 replied: Poor thing. I'm glad things have gotten better though. I had been meaning to ask but my head has been else where.

kimberley replied: glad things are getting better. girls are funny when it comes to nursing. i swear i didn't have the difficulties i do with the girls when i was nursing the boys.