am I the only one? - the cost of life today

boyohboyohboy wrote: I keep trying to ignore it, or just put off thinking about it, but lately its on my mind a lot.
With the price of gas what it is, and groceries going up, frankly every thing going up. I am really worried about the people, the large amount of people out there, that are just making it before these prices went up, and now wont be able to use things like air conditioning when its really hot, or heat when its really cold, or bet food and gas to go to work....
how are all these people going to survive?
I almost feel like its weeding us out, the survival of the fittest kinda thing.

we are just barely getting back on our feet after dh's job loss, for us its just less then pay check to pay check, what are we supposed to do when its absolutely impossible to meet these prices?

I dont mean to sound so doom and gloomy but I cant help but worry, especially for the elderly and the young...

holley79 replied: I was just talking about this with a friend last night. The poor get poorer and the rich are getting richer. The economy is in the toliet and I don't have the solution. it's going to get to the point where you can't afford to drive to work, in turn can afford to feed, cloth house your family. Looks like a Dust Bowl depression in the future.

MommyToAshley replied: It does seem like everything went up over-night. I know I sound like my parents, but I was ok with a little natural inflation over time, but it seems like things went up so high over night. The thing that really irks me is that we have the answers. But, somehow it is legal for the oil companies to buy the patent to a steam-powered engine so that it will never be put to use and they can continue make record profits.

I think your concerns are well-founded. I honestly don't know how some people are going to make it. Even if they don't drive, gas prices have affected the price of EVERYTHING!

mckayleesmom replied: I hear you.....Pretty soon Im going to have to get a job and not be able to stay home. We are still doing ok...but barely. We were just getting back on our feet too and now it seems harder and harder to do.

If I do get a job...its going to be one I can walk to.

grandma replied: Afew of us were talking about what ppl did with their stimulus checks. We agreed that many ppl just used them for survival. I know my kids used them for normal cost of living, forget about stimulating the economy!

boyohboyohboy replied: I feel like instead of killing off the weak its killing off the poor..and its got to be getting ready to over load a system that already isnt that helpful with assistance from government programs..
I mean if everyone starts meeting the guidelines for wicc and food stamps then what?

holley79 replied:
I wish I could meet those requirements because I have had to cut back on how much milk I am buying for Annika. Don't like that at all but I can't afford 4.00 per half gallon x2 a week.

TheOaf66 replied: I lay in bed everynight wondering ways I can cut corners to spare some money here and there

holley79 replied: Also something else to think about:

Since things are getting so expensive we are also seeing a spike in our crime rates right now. The other day a lady pulled up to the gas pumps, put 30.00 in her tank and drove off. The reason, all she had was 30.00 and had to get to work to be able to support her children and to put food in their belly. Another lady was caught shoplifting two cans of formula for her 3 month old child. If something does change this is going to become the norm.

boyohboyohboy replied:
we talked about my working but with the cost of day care my checks would be paying for child care and thats about it, it wouldnt be enough to really make the difference we need.

we have cut back also holley, on everything, the kids dont have the snacks are readily available as before, we keep encouraging them to eat more at their meals because we just cant afford the extra.. and forget about eating more healthy right now that is just not in our budget..
and we dont spent it on other things, we dont go out, we have only one car, and we dont have cell phones and high speed internet and cable..we live with the basics.....i dont know what comes next

grandma replied:
Mom's use to be proud to get the babies off formula at one and then potty train them. Now there is a real financial need to do that.

holley79 replied:
How sad when we are forced to make the babies grow for financial reasons.

boyohboyohboy replied:
yes we have talked about getting some form of protection because we also think the crime rate is going to go up and people are going to get desperate...

Crystalina replied: This is worrying me as well. I've cut as much as I can cut. Our three major payments are our pick-up truck (which we don't really need in summer but really need the 4-wheel drive in the winter), our mortgage payment and another property payment. I've talked to DH about actually selling our other 10 acres. Our house sits on 10 and then we bought an adjoining 10 acres. It's to the point where we have start thinking about selling it but at the same time who is really going to buy it at this stage? It's beautiful property and mostly cleared (we use it for hay now) but nobody wants to buy and really I hate to sell it and have a neighbor.

Another downfall of living in the country: it takes 20 minutes to get anywhere!

boyohboyohboy replied:
we dont live in the country but still take one day a week and plan all our outings and try to hit things close together as not to waste the gas.
my dh and i have been talking about getting him a motorcycle for work so its got less up keep then the car.

and forget about trips to the pool this summer or outings..and certainly no vacation.
we are looking for free things to do...

Crystalina replied:
A Staycation? My kids have done that already. DH starts a campfire almost every night he's home and they put up their little tents and they enjoy that kind of stuff....for now.

My2Beauties replied: It's getting ridiculous to be honest, I added it up and DH and I spend nearly $500 a month in gas We used our stimulus checks just to put a little extra money in the bank, we still have some left but not very much. We did get to buy the girls summer clothes and things like that, we are going on a vacation this year, but I better enjoy this one while I can, who knows if I'll be able to go next year. I try not to let it get to me because DH is getting ready to get a nice raise at work, the union just passed a new contract but by next year it probably won't be enough to cover gas. Then if you go buy a Hybrid you just have a higher car payment because they make Hybrids way too expensive. His 300 gets ok gas mileage but my car sure don't! I just live life one day at a time, I'm one of those people that when the going gets tough though...the tough gets going...it might be a challenge but I refuse to foreclose on my home or let my cars get reposessed it's just not in me to do, I'm a fighter I guess, but who wants to fight to live comfortably

PrairieMom replied:
credit cards.

Crystalina replied:
This is what it's coming to. I remember right before Christmas my kids had a bad habit of just tossing things in the cart (nothing real expensive) and I would see them at the register and just let them have it because the money was there but now I'm Mama Hawkeye when it comes to that stuff. Nothing gets passed me because I may not be able to afford it that day.

mckayleesmom replied:
I was going to get a job at night so that they won't be in daycare at all. Dh is home at night. Im probably going to start looking once Mckaylee is in school....Russell is usually good watching cartoons for a couple hours and he is the type that can play himself....Then I might put him in a program a couple days a week....

Gotta do what ya gotta do.

Boys r us replied: Yeah, things are getting crazy. I consider myself a pretty NON-thrifty type person..I do and buy what I want and never think much about it. But, you know it's bad when nichole here has started to get concerned at the alarming rate of money we're spending in frickin gas a month! Stimulus check..blaaahhh..more like survival check and we didn't even get one, which stinks b/c everything else has gone up for us too

Crystalina replied:
Half of ours went to bills and the other half to savings. We had to deplete a lot of our savings in the last few months so that just replaced what we used. We got absolutely no enjoyment out of that money but I'm the type to have bills payed first and playtime later.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That's one reason I had to find something else. It now takes me about 6-7 minutes to get to work. Before it was 25 minutes.

I feel bad for the rural people who have no choice but to drive 30 or more minutes to work every day. My FIL bought a deisel awhile back because it was cheaper at that time. Now it's even more expensive than regular gas.

Stacy, I think your concerns are legitimate. I think we all think about those things from time to time. Just have faith that things will pan out. Troy and I always look back on things and wonder how the heck we even made it by through some of the times we have gone through. God is good, things do work out.

I remember when Troy and I first got married. He was going to school full time (drive was 45 minutes from home, commuting, every day each way). He was also working full time, but had to pay an enormous amount for health insurance. His checks every other week were about $150. Now take into consideration the price of gas...even then driving more than 1 1/2 hours each day is expensive. He basically worked to pay for gas money for school. We still have NO idea how we got through, but we did.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That's what we do. Troy gets home, I go to work. Yes, it cuts in on your alone time, but we make it work. I get home early enough to have some pillow talk. It really is the only way for us to survive. It makes no sense for me to work full time during the day and pay daycare, when I can bring the same amount of money home working part time at night and be home more often. Plus, then my kids can still be home which is an added bonus.

lovemy2 replied: It is very tough - my DH is a cop - he can get OT but he watches the kids on his days off - pay for daycare and its almost not worth it for him to work the OT - so I have taken on some freelance legal work - I can do it at home and its good money - some under the table, some not but that's ok too - I got a second computer from work for free - I bought a used monitor and keyboard on craigslist for $20 - I am setting up the basement as a scrapbook/work area to work, scrapbook and be where there are lots of toys for the kids to play with - it will mean less playtime for me with the kids but at least I am home and able to make some extra money too.....

Frankly - it sucks - I find it sad that the world is in this state and I get more and more confused over who is to blame.........

ZandersMama replied: funny to stumble across this thread today, i spent an hour trying to figure out if im going to pay rent or electric and groceries

My2Beauties replied:
I can tell ya who is to blame, but we won't go there, that is a totally different discussion

Anywhoo....to add to this, I'm like Nichole, I always bought stuff and never thought twice about it, sure we've had some rough times (especially before DH got on at the railroad and then when they were laying people off and it got slow) but for the most part I've always considered myself lucky and now I'm starting to watch my checkbook balance dwindle down over $100 a week because of gas when a couple years ago it was maybe $50 a week or so I could sooooo buy a nice purse or something with that extra money < ----- and this is how I think...boy I'm in trouble when gas really does get to be $7 a gallon! LOL!

jcc64 replied: A little food for thought- the price of gas has gone up 300% since Bush (an oil man) has taken office.
An accident, I think not.

Gas for driving is bad enough. For those of us in colder climates, the price of heating our homes is insane. We installed a woodstove this year for that reason- we were averaging $700/month for heat during the coldest months! (and we never raise the thermostat above 63)

boyohboyohboy replied: I wish there was a site that started to talk about what to do how to cut corners and how to make it..

like i mentioned earlier my biggest fear is for the elderly who live on a fixed income, no chance for O.T. and they cant pay the heat or keep themselves fed..
whats going to happen to them?
it keeps me up at night

Jennie, I do try to have faith, I have always been a worrier...I know that sometimes things are rough, but its certainly easier to handle when it was me and I was younger and could live on tuna for a week, but now its my kids....

I just want to get thru this to the other side and look back and say, wow that was hard but we made it!

luvbug00 replied: Oh man we are still ok but we are scrapping pennies together a little more every day. It's only a matter of time before we are going to start cutting back even more. we already don't use heat or a/c . Lars walks to work, and i make as few trips as possible.

It's times like thease where it makes me so mad that brad and sneaky people like him abuses the system ment to help people who are truely stuggling.

~Roo'sMama~ replied: We're just barely just making it now, and prices going up worry me a LOT. I know we'll make it somehow - find ways to cut and all that, plus we're on a budget again and hopefully the amount we've allowed for gas and food and those things will be enough. Plus it's only until the end of August and then we'll be living with my parents while Dh finishes school ~ of course we'll have a whole new set of problems then. Dh is going to work part time, and I'm going to have to work part time too in order to cover our expenses. I haven't had a job since before I had Roo.
The personal cost to me for the high gas prices is being lonely - we live half an hour from our friends and because gas costs too much I can't go anywhere. I see our friends once a week if I'm lucky, and it's usually not for very long.

redchief replied: It's not a matter of survival of the fittest. It's a matter of overlording of the middle class and poor. The moneymakers hold all of the cards, but screaming at the government to level the playing field won't work either. Too many of the governors in government are riding the big money wave. There aren't any easy answers, but there are answers. It all lies with us, for we have one thing the big money earners don't have... That's the choice of whom to give our money to, in the form of what we buy and how we buy it. After all, how is it that you think that the rich keep getting richer? It's because we keep giving unto them what little we have and they take it easily and greedily.

Next time you think about that drive to the convenience store ask yourself if you need to. Can you walk? What about (heaven forbid) mass transit? I wish mass transit were an option here because I'd use it. Do we all buy what we need, or do we buy what we want? I'm as guilty of buying for myself a little bit of luxury as the next guy, but if we keep doing that, what right do we have to whine about the cost? Let's face it, as I look around the two rooms I can see, I see a 48" TV, 3 laptop computers and a desktop computer, 3 gaming consoles with many titles for each, an aquarium, two electric guitars, a state of the art washer and dryer (don't ask why I can see that from here, we're undergoing longterm renovations of the house), name brand soft drinks (4 varieties), 4 cell phones, and the list goes on. Depressing as our economy is becoming, we have us to blame as well as the fat cats.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: We live paycheck-to-paycheck, and are barely making ends meet. We are trying desperately to sell our house so we can live in a smaller place, and to get out of debt. We have learned from our mistakes, and we are paying for it now. I hope our house sells before it's foreclosed .

My income will be ending, and when that happens (I don't even know WHEN; could be a month, could be a year ), we'll be in so much trouble .

BAC'sMom replied: No, your not the only one. We have cut way back and still have trouble making ends meet sometimes. My Dh has had his hours cut on some weeks because people are not building like they used to here. I worry about what there is to come. I worry about my parents…. they live on a fixed income. And I worry about what will happen when the first hurricane enters the Gulf of Mexico. Gas prices always skyrocket when a storm hits the Gulf. Those of us that live on the Gulf Coast have to evacuate when a storm comes. Some by choice but most are mandatory. So how are those people going to leave and stay in hotels inland for days/weeks when some of them are barely getting by? You people think Katrina and Rita were bad…. just wait

redchief replied:
There are sites devoted to that.

Why not start a frugal forum right here though? It was your idea, so put it into Rod and Dee Dee's suggestion box!

Crystalina replied:
Mollie I'm so sorry. Our bills have never been behind and we are starting to get notices and I really think we are only two paychecks away from getting something turned off or taken away. With DH being an owner operator the diesel prices are killing us. He's parked his truck a time or two and driven for someone else only because a drivers wages paid more then being the owner and have to pay for the fuel.


I also feel terrible for all the elderly and disabled who depend on 'Meals On Wheels'. They said that they are having to pick and choose who eats and on what day because the volunteer drivers just aren't there anymore to help.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Thanks. I am sorry you are going through a tough time too. We always have something in collections or past due, usually medical bills from unexpected things (like Abby's crayon incident). I've contacted a few places, and so far they have been OK with small monthly payments.

Oh, IKWYM about the elderly or disabled . What an awful state our world is in.

A&A'smommy replied:
I was actually talking about this with my husband the other day I was telling him how much gas was when he went into office compared to now he doesn't care about us because its just making him richer it makes me sick at my stomach.

We live paycheck to paycheck also we are looking at trading in our truck for what its worth and getting a new car with better gas mileage I LOVE my SUV but it just uses WAY too much gas and with me having to drive out of town as much as I do (which is less now than when I was pregnant) its still going to eat us up plus how am i suppose to ever get out of the house with what we have now. On top of that my husband is the network admin for our school system so he drives probably a good 30miles a day with his crappy little suv that gets about 10miles to the gallon he needs a new vehicle but we have to get me one first since I drive the girls around. Anyway if it wasn't for everything going up we would be fine he makes really good money... this SUCKS!!!!

5littleladies replied: First of all, I really hate how politics is always dragged into conversations like this. Someone posts an honest, down-to-earth concern and someone has to drudge up some old, over-hashed side topic which, really, isn't adding to the conversation. I find it truly frustrating.

That being said, we have been struggling for years, due to some mistakes we made in the past and due to some problems at dh's job (no fault of his). We have been diligently working to get ourselves out of debt while living literally paycheck to paycheck-paychecks that do not make ends meet. Jas is working 2 jobs and since it wouldn't help for me to work, I do my best to make what we have stretch. Oh, and we pray-alot! And yes, it does help. The current economy will make things a bit harder (sometimes it seems impossible), but we will just keep doing what we can.

And for those who would like to look-do a google search for frugal moms and variations on that. You will find a wealth of good information!

Brias3 replied:
Gosh, I could have written this post! I am exactly the same way- we're fortunate enough to be in a position where we have limited debts and are quite comfortable money-wise but with prices rising every which way, I'M even getting a bit more cautious with what I buy and those "needless purchases", KWIM? I've never been a money waster, but I am definitely a spender. The economy now has me thinking twice! Had this been the state of things years ago when we were a young couple ourselves, we would have really struggled.

It's a total feeling of helplessness, seeing all the prices for things rise and salaries stay the same!

lovemy2 replied: I like the idea of a "Frugal Mom" forum Ed - and I am also going to be doing the google search on it - I already posted something about Angel Food Ministries - its a huge help for us for the grocery bill....

And Ed - I agree with alot of things being our own faults - we too have the big TV, a one year old ATV, a camper, a Wii, and it goes on and on - and are putting on a deck - that though in my eyes is a good investment and will also give us a nice place to spend time at home

jcc64 replied:

I'm assuming that someone is me, of course. I'm sorry you find that frustrating. What I find frustrating is the chronic complaining as if we're all helpless, blameless victims. We have an opportunity to change the course of our economy, or keep going on this same dangerous path. It has everything to do with politics, and I can't see how the connection isn't obvious to everyone. The middle class and the poor are really suffering, and though ita with Ed that sometimes we are our own worst enemies with our over-consumption, some essential purchases are non-negotiable- like the one I mentioned- heating oil. And yes, we can all find ways to drive less, but if we can't drive to work, we can't make $$$. For many people, there are no longer any luxuries to eliminate. We need to make the connection between how our gov't officials do or do not represent our best economic issues. This is common sense to me, this is not partisan politics. We're hurting, and things need to change. How can they change if we don't hold our officials accountable?! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

bawoodsmall replied:
I would really like to get a job at night waitressing. I honestly love to waitress but with dh's job it cant happen. He sometimes is still asleep when I get home from work at 5:30. His job is really funky hours and he needs to sleep at that time. I could def make so much more money though without having to pay for daycare. I pay way over half what I make per month. More like 3/4. I try not to dwell because that is when dh and I start to fight. It is what it is and I cant do anything about it.

boyohboyohboy replied:
because I admit I have been very lax in learning about politics and what I can do to make a difference, would you give me some examples, because I dont want to sit around complaining, I want to make a difference for my family, but I do not know how......

boyohboyohboy replied:
you know that sounds like a good idea!

5littleladies replied:
No it wasn't directed at you, I'm just really grumpy (at everything) and this post hit on a nerve. Gas prices are rising all over the world and I find it amazing that people blame it on Bush. All the problems of the world can apparently be traced back to this one man-must suck to be him. I am one of those suffering middle class that you speak of. We are still paying off our heating bill from this past winter-it was astronomical and we couldn't keep current with it. However I fail to see where the blame for that lies with one person.

I was looking for information on rising gas prices yesterday and I came across this article- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8043002129.html.
It is the Washington Post, not some conservative wishy washy garbage that you might assume I would throw out there. This article more or less states my opinion on this subject and I'm sure the flames will be flying at me once people read it. We have oil right here for the using, and we aren't using it. I find that pathetic.

Anyways-Yes I can see your point. I can see where politics, or whatever it may be called fits into this picture. I just don't think it is always necessary for it to be brought up. Maybe I just need to keep my hormonal self out of topics like this. They give me a headache.

boyohboyohboy replied:
very interesting article!

jcc64 replied:

See, I just completely disagree, b/c in a discussion like this, I don't see how it can be at all substantive without politics being part of the equation. In fact, it isn't just part of it, it's everything, and the thing that drives me insane is that the American populace has been so incredibly complacent and uneducated about the very issues that are causing us these dire economic circumstances we are all speaking about. We are all responsible because we haven't demanded accountability on the part of our gov't. You may find the discussion of politics to be a drag, but we don't have the option of being uneducated anymore- our economy is a real mess.
I am not immune to any of it- I am currently unemployed, having lost my job because American textile manufacturers couldn't compete with the Chinese. THAT is political on many levels- trade agreements, the exorbitant cost of employee health care, the inability of American manufacturing to compete in the global marketplace, and so one.
EVERYTHING in an economic discusssion IS political. I don't know what your political inclinations are, and I don't really care, because at this point, our problems are so massive in this country that only bipartisan efforts are going to solve them. The reasons that gas prices are so high are complex, and though I certainly don't lay the blame soley at Bush's feet, it simply cannot be ignored that when he took office 8 yrs ago, prices were 300% less than they are currently. That is a staggering increase. Even if it isn't his "fault" (which I believe it largely is) his failure to adequatlely plan for or anticipate these problems are. I don't suggest that he arbitrarily decided to raise prices to benefit his friends in the oil industry, of which he has many. However, I am suggesting that many of his policies, foreign and domestic, are directly responsible, not the least of which is the war, which has destabilized the oil markets to an enormous extent. Other culprits- a complete lack of investment in renewable and alternative energy resources, which is mindblowing in its short-sightedness; a foolish and stubborn refusal to acknowledge the catastrophic consequences of uncontrolled carbon emissions, as agreed to by every other industrialized nation in the Kyoto agreement, and on and on and on. Drilling in ANWAR or anywhere else is NOT the answer- the amount of oil there or anywhere is a finite resource, that too will eventually run out, and it is incumbent upon us to find other ways to produce energy. We have always been a country of incredible resourcefulness and technological superiority, but so many people have been benefiting from the increase in oil prices that no one has the self-control to step away from the table. Check out the profits of Exxon-Mobil- they are at an all time high. Automobile manufacturers have had the technology for some time to produce more fuel efficient cars- but for political reasons, have not been required to do so. It's up to you to figure out why- I blame the reluctance of our elected officials to step away from their altars of big business worship and take the long view, which is essential for our economic vitality. But they won't do it if we don't demand it of them.
Listen, I could type all day long about this. I am not asking you to assume my political views. I am simply pointing out that ALL OF US need to educate ourselves about decisions that are being made by our elected officials that are destroying this country for all but the very very rich. Gay marriage and abortion and all of those other hot button social issues are important, but too often they are brought up to distract us from looking at policies that are destroying the middle class. Right now, we need to focus on those things that are directly impacting our financial well being. That's all I was trying to say.

coasterqueen replied: Jennifer - you said a lot of what I'd say. Thanks. You know it's the same in ALL politics. People will always have to find someone to blame. As we wrap up session in our state, I listen to people blame everything that has happened in our state on 3 past governors because they were Republicans - so of course a Democratic governor couldn't do anything wrong, right? My point is we'll always have someone else to blame. You are right gas prices are high all over the world and I can guaranty Bush doesn't have everything to do with that. Maybe if we didn't use so much gas to do wasteful driving when we don't need it demand wouldn't be so high. I could go on and on in that subject, but I'm sure you can guess where I'm going with that.

Ed - I agree, we all spend frivalously - even the middle class and poor. I see a lot of "poor" who say they can barely make the bills, but yet they have cell phones, get their nails done, etc, etc, etc. I will say this to your comment about walking or mass transit - you need to remember there are many states where people are farm states - where the most jobs might been in one city to where you have no choice but to drive to get a paycheck, or where there is more country than city. My co-worker drives 45 minutes every day because the town she lives in doesn't have jobs, jobs that pay anything to make the bills. I live in the country - by choice. I wouldn't step one foot in living in a city. Yes, that means I have to deal with higher gas prices, but we have found other ways to deal with that. Dh switched his hours so we work the same time and we ride together -saving gas on one vehicle, which at this point is a huge savings. The only drawback to that is my girls are in daycare a 1/2 hour more each day. Is that real terrible? No.

My2Beauties replied: to Jeanne!!!!!!! Thank you you hit the nail right on the head!

luvmykids replied: The only comment I have on the politics is that I honestly don't believe government is the only answer....no matter who our president has been there have been problems. Granted they've gotten worse but like Jennifer said, it's happening everywhere.

I don't know what the answer is, I do know that I'm not expecting that with a new president everything will go back to high times

holley79 replied: NO matter who holds an office they are going to be blamed. My only question has been this, IF they can put a cap on insurnance compaines and what they are charging homeowners, why can't the govt do the same with oil? That's been my only question.

Now on to the frugalness. I haven't been overly frugal. I do stop and think before we go anywhere. This weekend we did a bit of driving but not much. I am still going to take Annika to the park or go to see family members. Those are given. We are going to see the higher prices till someone steps up. A friend of mine is making his own biodesiel. Works for me, now if I just had a desiel vehicle. We are comfortable. We do look into the future money wise. We are doing the best we have done in a VERY long time so I'm not going to complain too bad. Money wise we are good but as for the rising cost of things, that will quickly deplete it for us if we aren't careful.

Should we maybe place some blame on China for making the value of our $$ less?

jcc64 replied: I did say I believed this is a bipartisan issue. Clinton was in office for 8 yrs, just like Bush, and he had opportunities to create policiy that would have ameliorated this situation but didn't. My point, which I think is getting missed by many here on the assumption that I am engaging in Bush-bashing, (admittedly one of my favorite hobbies, so the error is forgivable) is that we the people, you and me and everyone we know, have the power to do something about our problems instead of just wringing our hands about how bad it is. To do so, we need to pay attention to public policy decisions and to be thoroughly informed. We no longer have the luxury of ignoring politics because we as a country are in serious economic trouble. Do I believe Bush is responsible for alot of our problems, you bet I do, but as I've already said many times in this thread, the conversation has to move beyond the usual partisan rhetoric. Be informed, is all I'm saying. Don't take the power you have for granted. It's a pretty basic patriotic idea, which I'm not often accused of being, but I believe very strongly that we have to fight to get our country back from the stranglehold of corporate greed. This is not a Democratic thing or a Republican thing. It's an American thing.

coasterqueen replied:
Jeanne, I agree it is a bipartisan thing. The problem is you didn't make it that in your first statement. You bashed Bush for it and that it was all his fault before you even spoke of bipartisanship. People tend to turn a deaf ear on "bipartisan" when you say it's all Bush's fault first before anything else.

holley79 replied:
had you said that to begin with it would have been an agreed upon statement. Unfortunately the first thing was it was Bush's fault.

Oh well we all have to deal with the consequenses of our polititians. I have been so focused on what Crist is doing to FL I kind of forgot there was any other problems out there.

jcc64 replied: If people don't want to look at the president's role in all of this, there's a limit as to how substantial the discussion can be. I've said all I have to say on this one.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: This kind of stuff bothers me.

And the nest little bit I'm talking in general, just venting, not talking about anyone in particular...


We can complain about lack of money... yet here we all sit behind our computers, on the internet... We complain about lack of groceries... yet we buy crap food. Beans, especially sprouted ones, are JUST as nutritious as meat. Portions are exaggerated. a big red apple is just about 2 portions. People who eat lots of bread, pasta...flour...sugar... will eat more... that's just the way it works. You think you're starving? look at what you eat...probably lots of cheap food.

There are tons of ways to save, if you're willing to make the effort. You can make bread. You can make yogurt. You can do canning jars of foods. You can grow your own. You're worried about possible contamination? fine, then lose your house on the chance of contamination. You can't get contaminated from living in a shelter or the streets, don't worry. You want to buy the 2.99$ can of stew? ok... then don't spend 10$ and can about 13 cans worth of stew. Buy the fresh factory canned crap that's 200% overpriced.

Learn to cook. Take the 15 extra minutes, and read a recipe..don't just tear the box open and shove it in the oven. Take some time to look at coupons... make a grocery list. If you don't make a list, you'll buy stuff on impulse, stick it in your fridge, and it will rot because you don't know what to do with it...and when you figure it out...it will be too late and it will be time to throw it out. Then where are you? 2$? 5$? 10$ poorer?

Sell the stuff you don't use.. what's the point of keeping it around? you don't use it. Might as well make some profit.

You want to cut back on spending? get rid of cable tv, get all the extras off your phone line... get rid of your cell phone, don't go out to eat, stop buying pre-packaged foods, bake your own breads, drive less... buy foods on sale and in the reduced isles, don't buy clothes, don't buy new shoes, don't rent a movie more than so often, don't buy craptacular nutrition such as soda, cakes chips and the like... buy the popcorn kernels... buy the ingredients and get the kids involved. Buy the no-name brand or store brand things, not the good stuff for a while. Suck it up. Cant live without all the good stuff? then keep wishing for money you wish you had... which you do, you just must not really want it all THAT much if you're not doing what you need to do.

Rant OVER.

redchief replied: Wow, this topic's still active. OK, so this response was solicited by more than one member, so at the risk of hurting anyone's feelings, which I hope is not the case, here is how I see it...

As I said before, if we create less demand, then supply will go up and prices will go down. It's an economic law. If we buy things when we need them, instead of because we want them, then supply will go up because we're not buying so much. If we use things until they wear out instead of until they go out of style, then supply will go up and prices will come down. This same law applies to jobs, folks. If we refuse to buy things that say, "Made in China," and demand domestically produced goods, then jobs will be created here and oil prices will come down. Why? Because we know how to make products using less oil than the Chinese do.

The war has destabilized global oil production, but only slightly, and others have picked up where Iraq has left off. The truth is that Iraq, though it has substantial oil reserves, has never been stable enough to become more than a bit player in the global oil market. Kuwait, their tiny neighbor and the reason for the first Gulf War, has a whole lot more oil under it than Iraq has. In fact, the OPEC nations are producing more than they ever have before and they're afraid to produce more.

I agree with Jeanne regarding our shortsightedness on alternative energy sources. We have the technology to utilize many renewable sources, but none of them will sufficiently reduce our thirst for petroleum products to effect the global market in a strong way, because we're not really driving it. In fact, the biggest reason for increasing global oil prices has little at all to do with us - we're victims of it. There are smaller reasons and I'll get into a couple of them in a minute. But Jeanne already hit the nail on the head regarding oil prices and didn't even know she whacked it. The growing economies of other countries are what's driving up the price of oil globally. China, Russia, most of eastern Asia and India are all combining to compete for the oil that we used to have, for the most part, for ourselves. OPEC understands all too well that their gravy train is limited by how much black gold they can extract from their otherwise miserable lands.

Carbon emissions and the Kyoto Accord are crap, and if you actually read it, you'd understand that the Kyoto Accord is nothing more than global economy bullying directed at the United States. That's why we haven't signed it, and why we shouldn't. The Kyoto Accord places the largest restrictions on the largest users. Even with the loss of jobs and manufacturing to overseas suppliers, the USA is still the global production leader by far (by approximately 30% over the next closest producing country on my last look, which, admittedly, is about two months old). The Kyoto Accord would do just what all of the "civilized" countries want it to do... put a damper on US manufacturing so they can catch up. It is NOT a document aimed at significantly reducing carbon emissions as advertised. You really need to read and understand the whole "treaty." The Kyoto Accord would make our current economic recession (if you're willing to call it a recession - I am) pale in comparison to what our economic state would be under the Kyoto rules.

What's wrong with drilling within our own borders to bolster our own production? It'll kill the trees? It'll kill the fish? There's a short feathered walnut crunching barn owl in them there hills? With today's environmental laws, even watered down as some will claim is the case with today's versions, the constraints placed upon any company that would drill for domestic oil would protect the creatures. Everyone's ticked off at Exxon-Mobile for making such obscene profits, but no one wants them to funnel some of those profits into exploration and domestic production. Why? Come on, really... WHY? The liberals say, "Because they can't be trusted." To wit, I snort, then who can? You and me? I haven't got a clue about how to drill for oil, and I certainly don't have the capital to try. The conservatives say they can't let the oil companies drill because the liberals are already beating them up for being too pro-business. Huh? The conservatives' collective loss of backbone is the biggest problem there! They're likely going to lose the next presidential election because they have been so beaten down by the whiny liberals that they don't have a solid platform. The liberals have so fallen in love with big money that any relationship they once had to the "little people" is a farce. The truth is, I'm scared to death at what's coming in the next administration, be it Dem or Rep, because none of them is going to go too far out on any limbs.

Another reason for increased price of gasoline is of our own making. It's a small player, but a player nonetheless. For the past 20 years, the detergent used in gasoline to make it burn cleaner was produced by the oil companies, and in fact was a by-product of the refining process anyway. With the requirement that at least 12% of the fuel be ethanol, those detergents can no longer used because they don't work with ethanol. Couple that with the fact that the oil companies don't make the ethanol, and you have a price component that the oil companies can't control. Does that mean it's bad to use renewable alcohol instead of petroleum? No, but it costs a heck of a lot more to produce and in the words of Rocky, we just have to suck it up.

Finally, I agree totally with what Rocky ranted above. It's painful for many of us to think of ourselves in such an austere and down to earth way. But it was how our forefathers (and mothers of course) made ends meet.

kit_kats_mom replied: just my little non political 2cents.

We've been working on cutting back on things around here too. One thing that I can do that is not only not too painful for any of us, fun for the girls and beneficial to our neighbors is pretending we lived during the old days. I've been baking my own bread a few times a week (and no, it's not perfect, but it's getting better each time), buying more used and generic things and really hitting the sales. We have been bartering more with our friends (a bag of baby clothes for a dog gate?) etc. We are even considering selling one of our cars to create room in the garage for a lawn mower (so we can get rid of the lawn service) and canning stuff. My Dh will ride his bike to work or I will take him on the way to drop K off at school. We've been making our own cards instead of buying them.

I found a cool website at http://www.vintagerecipes.net/ which has some uses for the parts of meats we used to throw out.

basically, there are a lot of ways to cut waaaay back. Not all of them are fun (we are still struggling with the decision to get rid of cable) nor are all of them reasonable, we can't get rid of internet since I work from home and it's necessary.

Also, one thing about home phones...have you guys heard of Magic Jack? It's only $20 per year for home phone service. We tried it and it worked just fine!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Aw heck...just toss it in a frying pan with a couple veggies, some soy sauce mixed with some vinegar and honey.... and serve it on white rice. Your family won't eat it? They've obviously never lived on Hot dogs and Ramen noodles for a few weeks.

Want a bit of extra cash? Get a paper route. Deliver pizza one night a week...

can't be seen working at a donut shop a day or two a week? You must really not need the $ all that much.

Can't skip a hair appointment? Well, if your hair means more to you than your heat or hydro...

cold? put on a sweater, don't raise the temperature. Warm? It could be a LOT hotter... deal with it, get a fan instead of the AC.

Paper towels for spills - come ON. Use a rag. Rinse. Repeat.

Diapers - train your 3 year old already... ya know? diapers are expensive, as are the wipes that go with them. Again... wipes... use a butt cloth. Rinse, repeat. Save big $$ on those if you use cloths.

Shop at a thrift store if you must shop. If you're really vain enough to be embarrassed about it... make it into a game... say loud and clear to your kids or whatever... first one to find XYZ for the "costume party" ( ) wins a prize...

Sorry for venting again.

coasterqueen replied: Rocky,

I completely agree with what you've said. I know, I'm guilty at times too. What I think is important in all of this is that even if we DO have the money to do a lot of things, that doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD do them. I know many won't agree with that logic, but that's mine. Unfortunately those I see IRL who have money and don't have to worry about it, don't see it that way because but they aren't very "green" either.

grandma replied:
lol - I love your ideas - very good. Matter of fact, 30 years ago I use to tell my mom, "I know we're broke when I can't buy paper towels." Funny how history repeats itself!

coasterqueen replied:
Those are some good things to do and it's nice to see people trying to do things from the "old days".

Other things one can do from the "old days" is buy your meat from local farmers, buy your milk from local farmers and skim it for butter to make yourself. Yes, that means it's not pastuerized milk - but you know, they didn't have that in the old days.

I would like to make my own bread. Dh and I looked into that several times but never followed through.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Karen it's not just about being green.... it's about we have all these convenient things, and we can't be bothered to keep on doing it the "old" way. I make my own bread because at 2$ a loaf, for a processed loaf full of preservatives... i can't justify it. I can't. We go through about 2 1/2 loaves a week. on average. Bread takes me 15 minutes of actual work.... I make 4 or 5 loaves at one time. 15 minutes of work for a week's worth of bread... can't go wrong.

It's certainly eaiser to buy a prepackaged lasagna or pizza to feed my family... but it takes me less time to make it than it does to go to the store and get it, not to mention cheaper.

You can be thrifty AND green.

My kids don't want for anything... they get good nutritious foods... and they don't complain too much about having to have an apple for a snack. at 2$ a pound, screw that... i'm not paying 5$ for a box of granola bars.

luvmykids replied: A lot of the stuff you mentioned, Rocky, is stuff we do or have done at some point...but for me it's not just about being thrifty or green, I see it as being responsible with what we have.

We definitely aren't perfect about it, but when our business went down hill we had to seriously prioritize. We did turn a lot of it into a game, just challenging ourselves to see what we could get by with (or without lol)....it takes some of the sting out.

coasterqueen replied:
I have to comment on the bread. I wouldn't pay $2 for a loaf of bread, either. We go to a "bread store" where you pay 50 cents to $1.00 for a loaf of bread. It's the same bread store that supplies all the grocery stores with bread. It's just their own store for the factory so they can sell it for less. So yes, homemade bread would be healthier because it doesn't have all the processed crap in it, but it's not cheaper - is it? Cheaper than 50 cents to a $1 a loaf?

We don't eat a lot of bread, though. We do when we take lunches to work, but still we may go through one loaf a week if that. Mainly the reason being that we are gone all day and kids are at the sitter.

kit_kats_mom replied:
I have not worked out how much my french bread costs but here's the recipe. It's so easy..you can do the breakdown

Margaret Roth's French Bread

2 C warm water (hot from the tap)
1 Pkg dry yeast
1 T sugar
2 t salt
4/5 c flour
2 T butter melted
a little bit of corn meal

I use my stand mixer but you can use any bowl
pour water in bowl. Dissolve yeast in it. Add sugar, salt. Mix in flour. Knead. Cover & let rise 1 hour. Grease an 18" baking pan, sprinkle with cornmeal. after dough as doubled in size, shape into 3 loaves. Let rise 45 mins. Heat oven to 450. put 1/4 inch water in a shallow pan on bottom. Make short diagnoal cuts along top. Paint wiht melted butter & plump loaves up a bit. Bake at 450 for 8 min then 375 for 32 mins.

Makes a great meal with bean soup or pasta and it's wonderful straight from the oven with cheese.

MommyToAshley replied: I think politics plays a role... but not the only role.

I am probably beginning to sound like a broken record, but I think the answer lies in alternate fuel sources. There is technology that exists... a car engine was built on steam to be self-sufficient, it refueled itself, no need to add more water. It went from 0 to 60 in six seconds (maybe it was 8 seconds), and an oil company bought out the patent to prevent it from being put to use. To me, that is a legislative and legal issue and our laws should be changed to prevent this from happening. Sure, the inventor was a sell-out and should have held out for the betterment of the country, but I am sure he was given a deal he couldn't refuse. I think if a patent is bought and then not put to use after so many years, it should be void. Israel is going to be completely electric cars by the year 2010. Battery exchange stations will be replacing their gas stations. If they can do it, why can't we???!!!

We have the technology to drill safely now without harming the environment, and maybe the answer is to drill domestically for some temporary relief. But, long term, we should be looking at new technology. We only NEED gas because the oil companies are doing everything they can to make sure we rely on it.

I am pretty lucky in that we bought an electric house when most people thought it was better to go with gas. I know our fueling bills would be outrageous right now if we had gas heating and cooling. We plan to move in a few years, but I would seriously consider looking into solar heating (at least to supplement) once we decide to move.

Boys r us replied: I saw that video Dee Dee, of the man who had developed a way for his own car(and any) to run on water. It was SO impressive and rustrating all in the same!

I also think that the government regulates other utilities such as electric and so forth, why are they not able to regulate gas prices?

Cary, that bread sounds wonderful! You've inspired me to try it..and while I'm at it, I'm gonna make Rick some lebanese pita bread that he lovvvves!

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Karen I pay 14$ for the ingredients to make enough bread for 2 months. That's between 18 - 22 loaves of bread... not to mention that I use the ingredients in other things, too, such as when I make pie dough, cakes, cookies... so yeah, it's cheaper thatn 50c - 1$ a loaf.

TheOaf66 replied: What's wrong with drilling within our own borders to bolster our own production? It'll kill the trees? It'll kill the fish? There's a short feathered walnut crunching barn owl in them there hills? With today's environmental laws, even watered down as some will claim is the case with today's versions, the constraints placed upon any company that would drill for domestic oil would protect the creatures. Everyone's ticked off at Exxon-Mobile for making such obscene profits, but no one wants them to funnel some of those profits into exploration and domestic production. Why? Come on, really... WHY?


I could not agree more ED

coasterqueen replied:
For you maybe. For me that would cost me a lot more. We go through maybe 3 loafs of bread at the most in a month, we do not bake pies, cakes, cookies or things like that.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: There you go!

what works for one doesn't work for everyone.

Sometimes I wish that the execs running things would spend a day in an average family's shoes, having to worry about everything. By no means is my family poor... we have money, we could live very comfortably for a long long time. But we don't... well we live comfortably, but I do a budget every month, and for the most part we stick with it... I don't do the frivolities... but once in a while, if I want to get good steaks for the BBQ, I do. it's not a big deal for me... but it would be a big deal to someone that has to limit their budget to 3 pounds of ground beef a week, know what I mean? I'd LOVE to see the bigwigs having to use a budget that the average family has... see how fast they'd blow their cash. Maybe then, they'd understand that not everything should be about money...some should be for the betterment of all of us.

TheOaf66 replied: I agree Rocky, they don't care about us because they are not in the situation...they should have to do a 30 day stint in our shoes (like that show) and maybe they would get the message.

holley79 replied: What I don't understnad is this though. "We" are blaming Bush for the high prices of fuel. How does Bush effect the price of fuel in Canada? They are paying more for fuel then we are? Looks to me part of Canada are paying around $4.34 per gallon?

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
our prices reflect yours. The conservatives are in power. Your prices go up... ours go up.

holley79 replied: I'm not complaining too bad yet. The only thing hurting us right now is the gas prices. Annika is almost 100% potty trained. We use pull ups only at night. We use cloth wipes because, your right Rocky, wipes are too expensive. There are a lot of things we use to take for granted but are trying to live "better" for the sake of our daughter. If we waste she will also. Waste not want not.

holley79 replied:
See it's political BS for all countries.

redchief replied: I've seen the water fuel based studies and they are, indeed promising. Hydrogen as fuel would be great. So far as I've read, though, the power it takes to run the cells doesn't make them worthwhile (and no, the newsies didn't tell you that... you have to look into it). The problem with hydrogen motors is that they need massive batteries to run the cell that separates the hydrogen and oxygen molecules. This isn't so bad except that the motor doesn't recharge the batteries... Is this starting to sound familiar? Why not simply put the energy directly to work with standard electrical motors? You still have to plug the car in frequently to keep that "fuel cell" working. I truly believe the technology holds promise, but it isn't quite up to the task of eliminating our need for petroleum at this time.

And the problem with electric cars is that while they are indeed source clean, they're not so "clean" in the grand scheme. They produce no emissions locally. But like all electrical appliances, that power comes from somewhere. Up the line, the power companies would have to produce more power (hence more greenhouse gases) to fuel the clean cars. Most of our nation's, and in fact the world's, power, comes from the burning of fossil fuels.

Are there clean solutions? Of course, but no one wants those solutions in their backyard. We've been kicking around the idea of windmills here for years - the wind is always blowing. Atlantic City did it on a casino redevelopment grant and it's been a great success. But no one wants them because they're loud and unsightly.

The tide comes in and out everyday, creating currents that will easily turn power turbines, but there are no grants available to advance the technology. Currently the turbines would be more costly to produce and maintain than the energy they produce would pay for. That's because salt water is extremely aggressive to most of the materials that would go into the manufacture of the turbines. But that doesn't mean that it's not possible to make the technology work. It just costs money that no one wants to spend. And so it goes.

redchief replied:
Y'all obviously didn't read a word of what I wrote last night.

moped replied:
I am the same way nichole and I was freaked out at what we spend on gas/month....OUCH

luvmykids replied: I admit upfront that this may be a dumb question....if we were to use water fuel, isn't that creating another problem since so many of us are already facing water shortages, drout restrictions, etc? I'm assuming non-potable water could be used but still....if we can't find enough gray water to grow lawns, how are we going to find it to fuel our cars? Can someone enlighten me as to whether or not that is a legitimate problem?

MommyToAshley replied:
If you catch a bucket of rainwater, that will fuel your car for life... you never have to fill it again. But, with that said, I'm not saying that the steam engine is the answer... there have been engines made that run on garbage, corn, etc. But, the oil companies always do something to discourage the development of these engines. Personally, I think electric would most likely be the way to go. Israel is the global leader here, and we should be following them and doing the envirnonmentally responsible thing, which for once would actually bring relief to the families that need it by offering a car with an alternate fuel source.

redchief replied:
I kind of lost your train at the end of that, Dee Dee. The H2O cells work fine with any kind of water... including salt water, which is the world's most abundant liquid. The trouble is in the separation of the molecules - it takes a lot of energy, so it's really not feasible right now. Electric cars are good, but until we start making power using more renewable resources, we're not doing the world any favors. Heck, the power grid can't supply the power we demand now, let alone piling on fueling vehicles with electricity. Also, electric vehicles aren't very good at moving a lot of weight, so commerce will still need something stronger. Israel is moving to electric cars because unlike the rest of the Middle East, it has no oil, and has to buy it from people that don't like them at all. For them, electric vehicles make sense. For us, maybe in limited ways it could work.

Much would depend, I suppose, on just where your power comes from. If most of your power comes from nuclear or hydro, for instance, then electrically powered vehicles would substantially reduce your greenhouse gas footprint. In my case, 60% of our power comes from petroleum or coal, neither of which are renewable, and both of which produce plenty of greenhouse gases.

By the way, if you want to know where your power comes from, go here!

coasterqueen replied: I'm not sure relying on electricity is a very safe idea either. At least it wouldn't be in circumstances I hope we never have, like a nuclear war or what about states that have usual blackouts, especially in the hot months. Maybe I don't understand how they would work, though.