car seat debate..

kimberley wrote: sorry i haven't been around too much. Kaleigh is teething and life is hectic but i just read the car seat thread and felt you all may benefit from reading a thread Jeanne posted a couple of years ago here. she links to a site that shows video clips of what happens to a child upon impact both rear facing and forward facing. after watching that, i chose not to turn Jade until well over a year.

Jeanne's post

coasterqueen replied: Thanks for a refresher on that Kimberley. I've seen that video before. It definitely opens my eyes and becomes a more important issue over comfortability of my child, etc.

I also went back and read the replies and what a difference a bit more knowledge and understanding I have now compared to when I posted in 2004 to that thread. I still turned Kylie ff adhering to the state laws/guidelines but my opinion is much different now than it was then. And FWIW, Kylie didn't stay happy too long ff so I didn't know everything

Thanks again for that. It really helped me see how more educated I've gotten on car seat safety. That's a plus for my family.

ashtonsmama replied: Thanks for posting that Kimberley. Hope Miss Kayleigh feels better w/ teefies soon...

C&K*s Mommie replied: Thanks for the infor Kimberley!!!

Hope Kaleigh feels much better soon!

BAC'sMom replied: thanks for the info.

~~*Missi*~~ replied: Thats great but is that child 34 inches and 15lbs like my daughter was at 9months. Is that child walking? Crawling?
See when my pediatrician told me to flip her he took into account many many other aspects then a generic test that has one weight one height..... He took into consideration her neck support her muscle control her height her weight etc... you may CHOOSE that which is fine but don't put down those who didn't have that choice. I could have either never went anywhere because my child was seriously uncomfortable. In fact the doctor even came to my car thinking i had her seat in improperly because she was so moody screamed the entire time got her out she was fine.... he saw this and took into consideration the fact of all above.... and the fact that my child is rarely in a car seat.... (not to mention that video is of a minivan seat..... cars and SUV's etc are made slightly different so unless i didn't scroll far enough comparing one type of car to the millions made throws another monkey wrench into it)

Those test are one sized doll and alot of other considerations are left out...

Also what happens if you child is 18lb and 2 yrs old but 36-38inches tall? What is the difference that a year makes???? I know alot of people that flipped at a year or little beyond even thou the child was under the weight limit.... so really what is the difference.
That is why it is a recommendation by the NTHSA & AAP (think i messed the letters up) and not a LAW because its not an exact science. Not every child develops the same, not every child is the same weight, same height etc... its a recommendation... don't try to shed poor light on those of us who had to flip our children early with doctors orders...

Or here is another thing... do you have those screens on your windows that babiesrus sells or any other store? Well another recommendation by the AAP and NTHSA is that they should not be used because they can dislodge in a car accident and kill a child..... food for thought....

A cotton ball placed on the back window, in a car accident of 25mph can kill a person or child if it hits said person or child in "deemed" areas.......
(from drivers pamphlet)

I think its your choice to do with your child as you please i think it wrong to mock, belittle, put down etc... someone for doing something different for thier child.

I am not saying that anyone did this, but showing the side of "way your right" could send that message, to others.. I am just stating what considerations I took to do what was best for my daughter and that there are other "views" out there... with the help and guidance not only of her doctor but the state police who did the seat check and place her new seat in the car for us..... (knowing she was under a year...)

amynicole21 replied: Missi, please don't feel you need to be defensive about this. The info is being provided so that people can CHOOSE to do what they like with it. No one is judging you. We know you are a good parent

~~*Missi*~~ replied: again i clearly state i am not defensive nor do i think anyone is judgin i am statin another side to the story.... cause not all things are so black and white... not all babies are the same... where if you look at the research on tests like these the objects used in are the same... weight height etc.....I am pointing out another view on the matter cause not everyone has kids that "fit" the governments standards......
not defensive at all... again i don't care what you or my best friend do with your kids its your choice.... again this is my choice...(well if i saw abuse i would care but generally speaking i wouldn't) .... i am adding another view to the mix......
If you think i am being defensive or whatever then sorry but i am not its my view and my opinion ......

Lexismama replied: I kind of have to agree here. I dont think its right to make it seem like one way is "better" then the next. I think that if info is going to be shared, it ALL needs to be shared so a decision someone is making is one out of ALL information ont he topic not just what someone did and feels is the "right" thing to do.
I too had to turn my daughter around ff earlier then a year. Now she is not super tall for her age, at the time she was tho. And rf her legs were squished and doing something as simple as having to hit the brakes quickly would ram her legs into the back seat and she would scream in pain. Now im sorry, that is in my eyes one heck of a good reason to turn a baby the oposite way. There are MANY other thigns that people dont realize that help suade a decision one way or the next and I do believe you need to look at ALL the factors in order to make a proper decision for YOUR child and not what others think is "right"

Jamison'smama replied: Cerainly we all want to look at different sides to every conversation--that's why it's open for posts. Someone posts ideas and suggestions and safety reports and other people do the same. I would love to hear reports on the flip side. Are there reports on it being safer to turn the seats around if they are tall? Are there stats out there? We as educated and concerned parents want to hear all sides of an argument. The fact that we spend time on a parenting board learning from other parents is a testament to our desire to be the best parents we can be. If the posts seem one sided on this topic, post stats on the other side. That way we can all learn.

Lexismama replied: I think what everyone needs to remember is that these are RECOMMONDATIONS, not laws (in most places) and to each their own. Everyone will do what is best for their specific child and that is how it should be done

~~*Missi*~~ replied: The purple section states where the test dummies are TWO sizes 11lb and 40lb.... that is leaving alot in the middle to assumption IMHO...... (this is just going over the article above poster placed, sorry forgot name:)
The orange writing clearly states that the recommendations don't clearly meet all children that YOU as the parents need to anticipate the changes... Taking into account Tall short skinny and chubby....
Red indicates where your child's head needs to sit on these seats for these recommendations to fit. Now i know my infant car seat clearly was up till (recommended) 29-30inches. I pushed that til 33inches or more. When I flipped sabrina her neck and maybe 1 inche above was actually not hanging over the top...


Height and weight limits

Manufacturers are required to label each CR with the child weight and height ranges for which the restraint was designed. This labeling determines the dummy sizes used to certify the CR. If a CR is certified for 22 lb or less, it must be tested with the Newborn and 9-Month size dummies. Certification to 40 lb requires additional testing with the 3-Year size, and over 40 lb requires the 6-Year dummy. Most CRs are certified with at least 2 dummy sizes, but those labeled only for children under 11 lb (a small car bed) or over 40 lb can be certified with a single dummy. When applying these labeled limits to a child, the maximum weight and the head position are more important than the standing height (or length) in determining when to move to a larger restraint.


Children should be weighed from time to time to anticipate when they are approaching the weight limit, and the additional weight of clothing is assumed. Tall, thin children will usually outgrow a CR before this weight is reached, but short chubby children may need to switch while they still fit in the harness and shell.

For rear-facing, the top of the child's head should be below the top of the shell, and a margin of at least an inch is recommended, so that the head will be supported and contact with the vehicle minimized during a severe crash. For forward-facing, the top of the child's ears should be below the top of the shell, to guard against neck injury (whiplash) in a rear impact. In addition, the child's shoulders should be below the highest strap slots to minimize slack in the harness. The only way to determine these height limits is to put the child in the CR and see if it fits. Note that many combination seats have higher strap slots than convertibles, even though they are both for children up to 40 lb.

Child restraint systems are engineered with a margin of safety, and they are tested under very severe conditions. It is therefore not necessary to move children out of their CR the moment they exceed either the weight specified or the recommended head or shoulder height. The concern is not that the harness or shell will break, but that, at some point beyond the limits, the CR will not provide optimal protection. The same applies to turning a convertible from rear- to forward-facing. However, with so many choices available today, it is a good idea to plan ahead for the next CR or belt system in time to get and install the best product for the child. This may involve installing a top tether anchorage or retrofitting the seat position with a shoulder belt.

These are just a few of the considerations I went with to my doctor when I was having "issues" with sabrina and the car seat.... not all kids are the same not all kids weigh the same same height same activity level... etc... its a recommendation to a boarder issue.... there are many things as parents we need to look into and decide with the recommendations is mind...(this alone is the article sorry above person put.... )ohh and i know that the ear thing is easily swapped when you put them into a convertible but some cars don't fit all convertibles rearfacing..... Go to Epinions.com and read the #1 complaint for rearfacing convertibles is they do not fit into the back seat properly.... (not that it was my problem) the problem was more rearfacing with the convertible it was squished in the backseat area then to add the legs of sabrina OMG... she would sit in her seat with her legs hanging over the sides, she isn't a indian sitter

C&K*s Mommie replied: All I can say it with Brenda on this. And thank you Missi, for sharing the oppisite side of this issue.

coasterqueen replied: Some info from car seat dot org

"When can I turn my baby around to face forward in the car?

When he is at least one year old, and preferably longer. (Swedish children ride rear-facing until at least three years old in safety seats made to fit larger children.) In a crash, an infant's spinal cord may stretch if she is riding facing forward, and the baby could die or be paralyzed for life. This is true even for babies who have strong neck muscles and good head control.

Most convertible safety seats can be used facing the rear up to 30 pounds and a few to 35 pounds. So there is no reason to turn your baby forward before age one and risk spinal injury. Do not use an infant-only seat if your baby's weight is over the maximum (20-22 pounds) or if her head is within an inch of the top edge of the seat. When using a convertible seat rear-facing, make sure the child's head is below the top of the safety seat, so that the head is not exposed to contact with the vehicle interior.

Why is facing rearward so important?

Babies have heavy heads and fragile necks. The neck bones are soft, and the ligaments are stretchy. If the baby is facing forward in a frontal crash (the most common and most severe type of crash), the body is held back by the straps, but the head is not. The head is thrust forward, stretching the neck. Older children and adults wearing safety belts may end up with temporary neck injuries. But a baby's neck bones are soft and actually separate during a crash, and the spinal cord can tear. It's like yanking an electrical plug out of a socket by the cord and breaking the wires.

In contrast, when a baby rides facing rearward, the whole body--head, neck, and torso--is cradled by the back of the safety seat in a frontal crash. Facing rearward also protects the baby better in other types of crashes, particularly side impacts. For more information, go to "Rear-facing vs. forward-facing."

Is it safe for my rear-facing baby’s feet to touch the vehicle seatback?

Some older convertible safety seat instructions said that a child should face forward when her feet touch the vehicle seatback or if the legs must be bent. However, there is no evidence that longer legs are at risk of injury in a crash, and these instructions have now been revised. Most children learn to fold up their legs for comfort when their feet touch the back of the vehicle seat. The only physical limit on rear-facing use is when the child's head comes near the top of the safety seat. At this point, the child should be moved to a rear-facing convertible restraint, or, if the child is already using one and is over one year, he should be turned to face forward. For taller rear-facing children, the concern is not potential leg injuries but possible head contact with the vehicle interior in a severe rear impact or during rebound from a severe frontal collision. This can be controlled by using a rear-facing seat equipped with a rear-facing tether (Swedish style)."

Some interesting q&a's from car safety dot org: http://www.car-safety.org/faq.html#Q3

Even the AAP recommends rear facing to both 20 pounds AND 12 months for all kids all over the country.

I'm having a hard time finding information on how not how unsafe it would be for a taller kid to be rear facing.

Here's WHY rear-facing is the safest, even with legs bent and it gives statistics and evidence to back it up: http://www.car-safety.org/rearface.html

I invite anyone who says legs being bent rear facing ISN'T safe to provide me information otherwise. I like to be educated on all sides of every issue.

kimberley replied: wow, again i posted something and didn't see this coming. i wasn't trying to sway anyone one way or another. just sharing a piece of video that stuck in my mind from the first time it was posted because i personally found it eye opening.



i wasn't putting anyone down for the choices they make/made. i didn't even reply to the Brittany thread. i am sorry if you felt it was an attack. i assure you, it wasn't meant to be. i honestly read all sides of any issue because i like to make an informed choice and appreciate yours and everyone else's input but in the end, my *personal* decision was to remain rear facing. we all make choices that are best for us and our families.

and those window screens, i heard long ago they cause cancer too. didn't research it so i don't know how true it is, but i don't use them at all either.

BAC'sMom replied: I also wanted to point out how important it is to have your younger children in booster seats. I think a lot of time this gets over looked. JMO

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welcome/saf...for_safety.html

Both my older children are still in boosters. And as small as Ansley is she'll be high school and still be in a booster.

DVFlyer replied: It seems to me that for every "rear end" accident, there is a "Front end" accident. Common sense (mine) tells me that in one instance, a rear facing child seat would be better and in the other, a front facing would be. So it would be a 50/50 issue in that case.

I'll choose to blindly follow the recommendations and hope I never prove them wrong.

DVFlyer replied:

Yeah, Kmberly, would you stop forcing your opinions on us by referring to a video

kimberley replied:
i'll *try* to behave myself lol

holley79 replied: We watched these vids in a traffic class here at work. I was horrifid. I just told the traffic division to let me know what Annika was old enough.