do you consider yourself feminist?? - advance apology to the guys!!

jolene555 wrote: Hello Ladies! I know I've been gone for a bit, but as you might know I've started back at school and it's keeping very busy. And as much as I try to keep up with everyone's goings-on, I come to you all today in the interests of education.

I'm taking a course called "feminist theory" that has become completely intrigueing to me. I've got several papers due soon, on topics of my choosing, and I am coming to you all for my research.

The question I pose to you all - men, women, mothers, fathers, daughters, and sons - is "Do you consider yourself a feminist???" Yes or no answers are okay, but any personal stance you might have would be wonderful. If nothing else I thought it might make an interesting discussion.

I'll be *attempting* to check back in periodically to ask more questions under this topic, so please bear with me.

Thank you all!!

kimberley replied: depends on your definition of the term "feminist". i am not an extremist and can't stand those who are. i believe in equal opportunity for women in every aspect but still enjoy when a man opens a door for me. i never want to be underestimated or discriminated against because of my sex but also like being paid a compliment or have DH open a jar for me. so what does that make me?

paradisemommy replied: definitely not a feminist and honestly don't really care for the ones that try and push it down your throat. i think there are some things that men just do better than women and no matter how hard a woman tries, she's just not going to do it any better. i think it's kinda ridiculous watching the extremes that think they can do all that a man can do and it just makes me wonder if maybe they would secretly like to be a man or are going through an identity crisis.

please don't take this the wrong way - i don't want to start a feminist debate or anything..it's just how i feel. i love being a woman and there's so much that we get to experience that a man does not so why try and take over their lives and prove to be better??

gr33n3y3z replied: Tammy took the words right out of my mouth

MomToMany replied:
Yep, she did a good job there!! Thanks Tammy!

mammag replied: I am most certainly not a feminist. I also agree with Tammy. There are certain things I don't think women should be doing but I don't want to get into too much and start a big debate. I think women should work if they want but it really bugs me when these feminists put down women like me who want to be home with their kids. When I quit working after I had Kristen the lady I worked for gave me a really hard time about it because I had just gotten liscensed and she thought I should want to continue this "grand career". You can tell when certain people are looking down on you for being a "homemaker" and it really hurts. My sil is an Associate Editor for Shape magazine and I can tell that she looks down on what I do. She makes comments sometime that really bug me.

My cil (cousin) went through a big feminist phase where she refused to shave. She was dating my brother at the time and I can't say he was really happy about that one. OOH!!!

Boys r us replied: I am NOT a feminist. In fact..I may be a little old fashioned in my views!
I think some people may mistake my point of view on this as a lack of indepence, but anyone who truely knows me, understands that is not the case at all.

I am a woman who believes that there are differences in men and women. I believe that women are wired to be better at nurturing children, I believe that men make better disciplinarians..think about it..even animals listen better to a man's voice and I KNOW my kids do.
These things I've mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg where the differences between men and women are concerned. There are just certain things that I believe men and women are genetically more inclined to be better at than the other. As far as myself having any desire to cross those boundries and be something that I'm clearly not cut out to be, I have no desire.

In my opinion and it may be a skewed one, but none the less, here it is...I believe that most femenists are extremists and they don't want to JUST BE EQUAL, they want to be superior. and I'm okay with equal and I feel that I already am.
I am married to a man who treats me with respect and honors me as his wife, I don't need a feminst rally to give me that..the person whom I married was my choice and if I picked a bad apple, then it would have been my fault.
I have a good job, I didn't get this job by lobbying on the stairs in washington for it
I got it b/c I looked in the classified ads for a job that I was qualified for and could do and then applied for it. When I was looking for a job, I didn't apply for the ones that I couldn't or didn't want to do..nor did I have my job handed to me the way my brothers did from my dad. Does that upset me? The fact that if I had been a boy, I wouldn't have had to get a good education and apply for a job, it would have been handed to me by my father? No way..are you kidding me? I'm a GIRL I don't want to work at a construction site carrying heavy materials or operating a bulldozer! I am happy to have an indoor job, where it's warm in the winter and cool in the summer! I have the right to vote and to work outside the home and for those rights, I commend the women who fought for them. But at this point in our civilization, I feel equal and don't know what the feminists are fussing about!

Now, as far as the statement I made regarding being old fashioned in my views on this subject, I guess this is where that comes into play. I love being equal to my husband, but when it comes right down to it, I HONESTLY like our partnership to be about 60/40; Rick 60, me 40. I like him to "be in charge" if you will, to have the final say. I'm quite positive that I cannot fully relay what I mean by this in words, but perhaps someone out there understands what I mean. In my opinion you can't REALLY have an equal partenership, what if you both disagree, then how do you decide something? Who has the power to make the final drop of the gavel? I willingly give that extra 10% of power to my husband b/c I like it that way, it's a comfortable feeling for me.

mammag replied: Way to go Nichole!!! Great reply! I know exactly what you mean about 60/40 and totally agree. That is how it is in my house as well.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Ok Here is my two cents. I am not a feminist. I love the tradional roles we play at home. I do most of the cooking and cleaning. He does help a bit. We both take care of our children..but somethings mom does and somethings dad does. And in turn for that I don't have to spend hours weed eating and mowing the yard. He fixes the vehicles and takes out the trash. Don't get me wrong sometimes I think what I am thinking he is lazy..But in the after math it actually works well

And the other side of the coin is this

In my professional life I will be treated EQUAL! I have worked just as hard as any man. And I am an educated woman and I will be treated the same. I am not saying in my office sitting that I won't let a man open the door for me, or complient my dress..but I am talking about the bare bones..pay and respect wise.
And that to me is the bottom line. I feel like I can keep work and home separated, and just because I choose to be tradional there does mean I am pouring coffee at work.

Oh I also wanted to state that I do not look down on stay at home mothers. I think you have the most patience in the world. I was once on a leave of absence and got so bored and hateful around my own family. I felt bad. And of course I give lip service by saying, I would live to be a stay at home, but I really need to work, but to be honest with you all I am not sure I could do it..isn't that awful.

IMHO?

texasp3 replied:
Well, hot patootie - I think that's the BEST definition of "feminist" I've ever read! IF that's what you believe, than sister, you are definitely a feminist.

I think people are confusing "feminist" with "extremist man-hating whacko." Every movement, group, religion, belief system has it's extremist whackos that make the larger group look BAD.

I'm TOTALLY a feminist! I love the bumper sticker that was on my MIL's old car...

"A feminist is someone who believes that women are people too!"

jcc64 replied: I'd love to hear from some of the ladies that referred to "men being better than women at certain things" what those things are, specifically.
To me, true equality comes from the ability to make choices. And that includes staying at home with kids in a traditional manner.
However, I'm quite certain that a vast majority of the women on this board are too young to remember a time when we women didn't have choices, simply because we were female. My mother, who is 64, was only permitted to choose between being a nurse or a teacher when selecting a major at the college she attended. There were no girls sports until Title 9 was passed, sometime in the late 70's, I believe. If a girl was athletic, she was limited to cheerleading for the boys. Very, very few women were doctors, lawyers, CEO's, etc., until very recently. And TO THIS DAY, women earn 70 cents to every dollar a man makes FOR DOING THE EXACT SAME JOB. Why this would be ok with anyone is beyond me.
All of these choices and advances which we all enjoy are the results of the labors of feminists. Just as civil rights and desegregation would not have occurred had it not been for all of the demonstrations and marches in the 60's, your ability to choose what to do with your life would be vastly limited today were it not for your feminist sisters.
I think the term "feminist" has unfortunately been co-opted by the right wing media and been spun into something no one wants to be. Are there hairy arm pitted extremists trying to advance women's agendas- I'm certain there are. But there are also religious extremists, and that doesn't give us the right to summarily dismiss the vast majority of good religious people.
So, if believing that we as women have the right to all the same opportunities that men have, as well as the ability to raise our families in any way we see fit, then sign me up as a flaming feminist!
And btw, I too love when a man holds a door for me, and have taught my sons to do the same.

5littleladies replied:
This is exactly how I would define my relationship with Jason-and I wouldn't have it any other way!

And Tammy also explained my feelings on this issue perfectly!

ammommy replied: I absolutely am a feminist by my defination. I believe that women should be given the opportunity to try anything they want. I don't think that being a feminist in any way means that I can't choose a traditional role for myself, as long as that is what I choose. I remember my Mother being looked down upon for working when I was little and I never want my children to experience that. Sure there are women who are extreme (feminazis is a good term that I have heard) who give feminism a bad name, but overall I think the options for women that the movement brought along are wonderful.

That said, you can be sure that I am teaching my son to open doors for women and girls. That's not sexism, that's manners

mom21kid2dogs replied:
I think people are confusing "feminist" with "extremist man-hating whacko." Every movement, group, religion, belief system has it's extremist whackos that make the larger group look BAD.

You took the thoughts right out of my head! I read an article a few years ago (probably longer than I realize~ ) that interviewed Gloria Stienam. In that article she talked about this 70's concept of feminism and the necessity of it elevate women to where they are today. I believe she likened today's perception of feminism in the same vein as today's perception of the Vietnam War. Many times people think of those events in terms of the extremism associated with it but it is impossible to look at them without looking at what was going on in historically at the time. Were those events extreme~sure they were. Were they necessary in serving a purpose~most feel yes, they were. The methods were extreme because that is what it took to effect change. Unfortunately, for many pepole who are not "children of the 70's" all they see is the extremeism and not the real how's what's and why's associated with it I found it fascinating that in the article, the person who was considered the "mother" of feminism in the 70's and 80's said she couldn't even define it in todays terms.

Have I benefitted from the feminist movement~you betcha! Am I glad there were strong, brave women who proceeded me to fight for everything I currently have~absolutely! Do I see myself as a feminist~like Gloria Stienam, I'm not really sure what it is anymore so I guess I couldn't answer one way or another. I do strongly believe that because of feminism I can make whatever choices in life and feel supported about them. No one at work begruded me leaving after a 22 year carreer to raise my daughter. In fact, I was incredibly supported by everyone. Some expressed jealousy that they couldn't make the same choice but they were supportive of me, just sad for them. My coworkers just call me every other week to see if I want to come back yet~LOL!!

There is still much inequity in being a woman, there always will be. We are the ones who bear and nurture the next generation and that will forever seperate us from men. Good? Bad? It likely depends on where you sit on the fence!

coasterqueen replied: I don't know how I feel or where I stand. Sure I think women should be treated equally and you know what....we are not in the workplace and it stinks. It's rather humiliating to be a woman in the workforce, especially in the political field. I'm sure it's that way in other fields as well, but women in the political field....well the only way you can be successful is to sleep around...at least in this state it is and well....I'm not going to do that so I will always be considered a "secretary" even though I'm a business manager and do much much MORE than a secretary does.

BUT there are times I wish I would have never had the choice to work, kwim? Because if women were never allowed to work then men's salaries would be much higher and I could SAHM. I know an awful thing to say, but that's how I feel sometimes.

A&A'smommy replied: ITA with Tammy and Nichole they said it perfectly!!

texasp3 replied: Oh Jeanne - WELL SAID! Brava! Brava!

As far as having benefitted from the feminist movement? WE ALL HAVE!

Ahem...

If you are allowed to vote, if you can have your own checking account or credit card, if you can hold a drivers's license, if you can go to college (just ATTEND, never mind choose any major you want!), if your DAUGHTERS can look forward to doing any of these things... then you have benefitted from the efforts of feminists. If you think you and your sisters and mothers and daughters SHOULD be able to do and have such rights and choices, then you ARE a feminist!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I am a feminist. Thank you Jeanne and Marie for clearing that up for those who really don't understand what it means to be a feminist. And, Mollie that was the perfect definition of feminism.

I am not an extremist, however. I DO believe and always will that a man should be the head of the household. That is a religious belief, but it is NOT the same thing as being feminist or not being feminist. I also believe we should be submissive to our husbands (as the bible teaches), but I don't feel that we should be submissive to the world and to EVERY man out there. I feel that we SHOULD have rights and we should all exercise those rights. I feel that we should be able to leave the house in anything more than skirts. I feel that we should be able to go anywhere we want to go when we please and choose whatever major we decide upon and be able to apply and or work for any company that wants to hire us. Do I believe that men are better at some things? Yes. But, I am glad that I have the choice to stay at home with my children or work outside of the home and for that my dears, I AM A FEMINIST!!

Boys r us replied: Well perhaps I don't understand what the true meaning of being a feminist is, but Aimee just out of curiosity, what part of that don't you have?

I guess to me, being a feminist is about fighting for equality..shaved pits or not( I have no mental stereotype) I don't think there is a woman on this board..or even a woman in this country who doesn't want the right to be treated the way you have described. So, I guess my question is this, if that's what the true meaning of being a feminist is, then what's being a non-feminist..other than a male who believes a woman has no rights?

In my head a feminist is someone who stands up for the better treatment of women and advancing their stature in this world. Do we need feminist movements? Sure, but not in this country. I think that they have a mission accomplished here. I feel I am treated equal.

If being a feminist means I want to have the choice to work outside the home and want people to respect me, then yeah sure I am a feminist, but in my eyes those desires make me more a humanist..not a feminist..a third leg or not

coasterqueen replied: Aimee,

You believe you should be submissive to your husband? Wow. I guess I'm suprised about that. My MIL practices Johovah and she's always telling me I should be a submissive wife, but the way she explains it....uh no way am I going to be that. I will not shut my mouth and listen to my husband and do what he tells me to do and only speak when I'm spoken to. No thank you. That's at least their religious definition of being submissive to your husband.

I guess I also didn't know that men being the head of the household was of a religious nature and not of a non-feminist nature. I'll have to look into that more for my own curiosity.

coasterqueen replied: I add:

submissive A adjective
1 submissive

inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination; "submissive servants"; "a submissive reply"; "replacing troublemakers with more submissive people"

2 submissive

willing to submit without resistance to authority; deferent

3 slavish, subservient, submissive

abjectly submissive; characteristic of a slave or servant; "slavish devotion to her job ruled her life"; "a slavish yes-man to the party bosses"- S.H.Adams; "she has become submissive and subservient"


To me being a submissive wife is against the feminist movement.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I don't think I have ever understood the submissive part really either. My family relogion has always said the man is the head of the household type thing.

Well, I think you do what works for your family. I wouldn't say Randy is always the head of household. I do alot of things that he doesn't do well, that would be fo the head of the household to do. He doesn't speak well and gets tongue tied easily, so I take care of business. And alot of time he takes kids back in forth to school and does the doctor appointment etc b/c I am at work.

But for me and my family it all equals respect..he wouldn't want m to do somethign I really hate just because he says he is the MAN of the house..


But I think we are confusing a feminist question with a religious opionion?

texasp3 replied:

Now that's thought provoking...

So, are you saying that if a woman freely CHOOSES to be subserviant to her husband because of the religion she freely CHOOSES to follow that she is somehow less of a feminist?

Hmm.... I looked up "feminism" and..

From Webster: Feminism - the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.

So, perhaps it comes down to a difference between feminism and freedom. Or perhaps it all lies in what we think "social equality of the sexes" really means. Can I believe in social equality of the sexes, but also choose to be subserviant to my husband? I think so... but then I don't believe that being subserviant to your husband necessarily translates into thinking you are inferior to men.

Also, it seems to me that freedom means the ability to choose to live as I wish to live, not as someone else dictates I should live. If that choice includes a religious belief that I should be submissive to my husband (not men, and not even because he's a man, but because he's my husband) how does that negate my feminism?

If I am NOT free to make that choice, then my life is simply being controlled by a different set of rules... I am still not free.

[For the record... I am not subserviant to my husband (I can hear him laughing hysterically somewhere on the west coast) and I'm not even particularly religious. I am, however, quite opposed to women having their choices made for them.]

coasterqueen replied: Hee hee Marie about your Dh. Well I guess it's all the time listening to my MIL talk about the religious nature and being subservient to your husband and my talking to her about being equal to my husband, hence equality of the sexes. She and I have had arguments on this because religiously she says you can't be subservient to your husband and be equal to him. The two definitions just don't coincide there. YOur either equal or you are "behind" him. Which in all honesty I do agree with her. I don't think you can be equal and be subservient in any way shape or form. I'm glad my husband doesn't want me to be subservient, he likes that we have an equal partnership in this. Sure he'd love to be able to financially support his family so I could stay at home with our children but he also knows that would mean him never getting home every night when his child is asleep and well that's not for us at all.

Our guess the way we all view the definitions makes us have differing opinions.

Boys r us replied: I don't think Karen is missing the point at all...how can you say, I want to make my own decisions and don't want anyone telling me what to do,I am a feminist who will stand up to be able to make my own decisions? But I am submissive to my husband and will do as he tells me.
In my opinion that's like giving up one evil for another!
I don't want the government to tell me what to do or society, but rather I will hand pick a man to do that for me. The two things really are one in the same. I think being a feminist is about fighting being subserviant to ANYONE!

To me, that is like a slap in the face to feminists everywhere, b/c you know...Feminist.com is an advocate of defeating domestic rape and violence...but it seems if people were just submissive to their DH there would never be either of these two things!

5littleladies replied: I don't know-I guess in the technical definition you could call me a feminist, but honestly-I think the current view of feminism is so much more than that. I think it's wonderful that women have rights, but I don't think that enjoying those rights makes me a feminist.

As far as the wives submitting to their husbands-I believe in this. It does not mean that my husband has the right to boss me around. I believe it means that he has the final say in our household. We always discuss our decisions and give our opinions but in the end I trust him to make the final decision. Since we are so like-minded our decisions are almost always the same, but in the end-if he thinks something is right for our family I choose to trust him even if I'm not sure about it. That does not make me subservient in any way. If I could not have trusted my husband to do what is right for us and our family I would not have married him.

coasterqueen replied:
But is that really being submissive to your husband? Of course most of us discuss things with our husband's and come to a decision and sometimes my DH's decision isn't one I'd go with but if he knows the issue mroe at hand than I do I trust him. That doesn't make me submissive to him or subservient. I make decisions on certain things alone and so does he. That's not submissive in my book.

Looking at other definitions of "submissive, submitting" I guess it could be being submissive but the way I've always been explained to about being submissive in the religious sense is much more "subservient to your spouse" and well, not equal.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Several people made mention of their standing in their marriage about feminism and how their husbands are 60% head of household while they are 40%, etc. I was stating that my belief on that is religious and had nothing to do with what feminism was about. That is what I was trying to get across by that statement. Yes, Karen I am submissive to Scotty. Or subserviant. Whatever you want to call it. It works in our marriage b/c we ARE religious and we follow the bible. I think times have changed a lot and the definition of submission probably isn't to the extreme it was in the bible days, kwim? At any rate, we are getting the 2 confused. They have nothing to do with one another, IMO. I was just stating that politically I am a feminist b/c I believe that women have rights, but religiously I am not. Maybe that puts me somewhere in between. Like I said in my original post and Marie explained, the fact that I am submissive in my marriage doesn't mean I am submissive to every man or a slave to the world. Scotty is my partner, but I feel as my husband he is the one to call the shots and make the choices on what is best for our family. We normally make the choices together. He isn't one to just 'tell me what to do.' However, if I ask for his opinion on something, I abide by his decision b/c he is my husband. How does this play into my feminist side? I'm not sure. I just know that I am grateful that as a woman I do have rights and I exercise those rights. I have worked outside of the home and I don't feel if I worked outside of the home right now that Scotty would get home any earlier. He wouldn't. The kids would be without a mom and dad during the day. Someone else would be raising our children and they would still see him the same amount of time. That is his profession. So, in our family we feel it is best that the kids have their mommy around a lot more.

I know that you answer to Ryan in a lot of ways so for you to be so "surprised" by my admission of this is well, surprising in itself. Not too long ago you asked him if you could stay home when Megan was born. He said "No." Despite the fact that you were upset by that and that is not your wishes, you still obeyed him and off to work you go. I personally respect you and him for that. But, if that isn't submission to an extent (probably the same extent we practice it) then I don't know what is. Now, if you weren't submissive and feminism had anything to do with it, you would ignore his wishes and stay home anyway despite the financial burden it would cause (as he pointed out)...am I correct?? The fact that you work outside of the home has nothing to do with not being submissive. Like I said, we are getting these 2 confused. I just wanted to answer some of your questions and defend my religious beliefs. We all have a right to believe what we want and are entitled to our views. I hope that cleared mine up a little. Sorry for the confusion. I never meant to say that submission was the same as feminism.

Boys r us replied: I DID state that I enjoyed my rights as a woman that I have today and that I induldge in a 60/40 marriage..but I also said I am NOT a feminist!

In my opinion, I think enjoying the rights that other women have fought for us to have and being a feminist are being confused.

5littleladies replied:
That's where the problem really lies-I think people interpret it wrong. Have you also been told that in the same chapter of the Bible it says "Husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her". Honestly I think the man has the harder end of the deal. If my husband and I are following this Biblical principle then I will submit to him-Willingly chose to have him as my "authority"-the decision maker in our home, and he will love me as Christ loves me-not a short order and if he is following this it won't be hard for me to trust him. I don't think you can discuss the one principle without the other.

ETA-Sorry this is so off topic!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Nichole I think you are right. We probably are getting the two confused. Or I will speak for myself. =I= am probably getting the two confused. I should never take part in debates.

Boys r us replied: I think we've had a very healthy conversation today ladies..even if we did get off topic..I guess one thing really relates to another!


also, Just wanted to add, that though Karen may have wanted to stay home with Meagan and looked to Ryan for a way to be able to do it financially..and he responded that there was none and then off to work she went, I don't think that was being submissive at all. I think it was Karen looking to her husband for some sort of insight on the finances..a way to fix it that maybe she was missing..and when he didn't have that, she went off to work b/c she wants to provide for her children and put food in their tummies! If Ryan had said yes, you can. but we won't be able to feed the kids, I'm pretty certain she still would have gone back to work!

coasterqueen replied:
No Aimee, I respect your opinions and was just trying to see how you think being submissive is not a part of feminism. I was just wanting to understand it because to me being submissive to your DH IMO makes you less of a feminist. At least from my perspective and I was just trying to understand yours.

Actually I am not subservient to my DH when in regards to staying at home or not. Yes I asked him if it would be possible and he did say no and so yes I continue to work. I don't know what exactly I posted in the past about it but I thought I had said that he said no which is true but he also said I could if I wanted to but that meant giving up things that well, I can't ask my husband to do really. Me being a SAHM would mean us giving up the land that has been in his family for generations as well as the house that him and I poured our blood, sweat and tears into to build ourselves. Sure I would love to SAHM, but not at the price of what he worked so hard to have. Sure my DH could get a job in his field that required him to work ungodly amounts of hours a day and he would NEVER be home with his children and I wouldn't have to work but to me that's not fair. He should be able to sit down to dinner with his children and put them to bed. This means he makes less money which means I have to work. But as someone who never grew up with his father around too much because he was always working late hours....I'm thankful that we've made the decision we have no matter how much it hurts me. I also know that sending my DD to daycare may seem to others that she is being raised by someone else but how is that philosophy any different than sending your children to school every day? Yes, they have to go to school, but someone else is with your child all day, right? Granted if you choosed to homeschool, well then yes I believe one could have the right to say that they are raising their children NOT someone else. But if you send your children to school every day well, someone else is with your child...not you. Or at least when they get school age to go to school all day.

I'm going off on a different point here, but no I'm no submissive/subservient to my Dh. He can tell me no all he wants. I can tell him no all he wants but believe me my DH would tell you I don't listen to everything he says and he does not think I should. I am not a SAHM because I don't think my DH should be the only one making sacrifices in our marriage or for our family.

The feminist movement started when women wanted to be equal, when they wanted to vote, when they wanted to go to work etc. That's when they wanted to stop being submissive to their husbands and start being equal. To me submission and the feminist movement are not different.

coasterqueen replied: Nichole,

I agree this is a very nice, healthy discussion and I've learned a lot about the subject and about myself really. I can't wait to sit down with my MIL and hash this all out with her. This is one of her favorite topics since she thinks I should be submissive to my DH. Makes me want to dig up all that religious articles she gave me on the subject. Now where could they be? I hope I didn't throw them away.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I have learned a lot as well. Thank you ladies for your insights and knowledge on this. I bet Jo has a lot of material for her project now.

Boys r us replied: Haa..well that WAS the point of this whole thread..to get info for her school project! now when she gets an A on this assignment, she better take us all out for icecream..ughh fat free of course!

coasterqueen replied: Jo,

I'd really LOVE to read your paper on this when you finish it. I promise I won't critique it. Now you make me wanna go back to school just to take classes like this. That subject is much more interesting to me than the evolution vs. creationism class I took. Although I guess it was fun because we had a lot of lengthy debates on it and I learned a lot.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I would like to say good job to us women, we had a great debate with different points of view ! And no one got angry, heated or just mad..

Way to talk ladies, and explain our thougths.

None of us are right or wrong! And I am glad it takes all kinds.

I am proud to be associated with such smart, intelligent and respectful women...

texasp3 replied:
Wow. Interesting. And I don't think you CAN enjoy the rights women fought (and died) for us to have without being a feminist. That has as much to do with my understanding of what a feminist is as much as anything.

Perhaps it's the way "feminist" has become polluted by a small, extremist movement marching under the flag of feminism. I know there are agendas out there that I do NOT wish to associate with that call themsleves "feminisim."

I refuse, however, to allow those fringe elements to force me into saying I am not a feminist, just because they have polluted the original intention of the movement.

texasp3 replied: Oh, and I think this has been a great conversation too! For me, it's been FUN! I like exercising my brain. Gabriel's not one for social issue debates.

Boys r us replied: Haaa..Marie, I respectfully disagree!!!!

there are plenty of African Americans who enjoy freedom and equality without having stood up for their rights or spoken out about their rights even one time!

I think the rights that you and I enjoy today are the fruit of another woman's labor and as much as I appreciate that, I do not consider myself a feminist b/c to me, it means a continuing journey..and to me the journey of equality for women in this country has reached the end of the path b/c I believe we are equal!

coasterqueen replied: Marie,

ROFLMBO about Gabriel not being into social debates.



Nichole,

Do you really think we are equal? Are you getting paid the same amount a man would get paid for doing your job? If so that's great! But I tell you what it's not happening for every woman out there...not me.

texasp3 replied:
Whoops... well that would be the crux of our disagreement then, because I certainly can not share that point of view.

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: It is FAR from the end of the path. You may think we are equal and that is great that you consider us equal, but a lot of people don't and we aren't treated equal. Like Karen said about the pay issue. A woman in Scotty's profession is paid far less than he is despite her abilities and experience or the number of hours and dedication she puts in.

jcc64 replied:

Gotta disagree with you on this one, Nichole! Until both houses of Congress( not to mention the executive and judicial branch) more accurately reflect our 51% of the total population, there is much work to be done.
Can you all just imagine how much more women/family/child friendly our country would be if women were making more of our laws?!

coasterqueen replied:
Jeanne,

It's so funny you say that mention that because I listen to our legislature daily on the internet when they are in session (the Illinois legislature that is) and they crack me up. Those women are BRUTAL and I've noticed I'm seeing more and more women in the legislature and minority women at that.

jcc64 replied: Well, I'd imagine you'd have to be one tough broad to stay afloat in that environment!

Boys r us replied: Well Jeanne perhaps if more women UTILIZED their right to vote, more women would be in elected positions, huh?
None the less, that is nothing more than a case of what the people want and considering that the population is made up of approx 7 million more women than men in the US..then who do we hold accountable for that? We are all able to voice our opinions and that is one of the rights that I am grateful for, but as with anything else, a lot of times the knowledge of knowing you have the right outweighs the desire to use that right!

5littleladies replied:
I don't see this happening any time soon-Not because of inequality, but because for me personally-I don't want to vote for the majority of women who run for office because I don't share their views. Their gender makes no difference to me so long as I believe in what the stand in.


Here is an interesting thought that was brought up to me-Do you think that men should get custody at least 50% of the time in custodial battles if we are to be such an equal society?

ETA: I know there are many wonderful stay at home fathers-some on our board so this is not meant to offend anyone. I'm just curious, since generally women are viewed as the ones to naturally take care of the children. It was a male who asked me this question.

Boys r us replied:
yes I am! I have a really hard time believing that the vast majority of women are being discriminated against in pay. yes, the numbers may show that men on average make more money, but you have to look at the whole picture, not just the black and white numbers. track why that is..perhaps it's because more women do stay home with their kids aside from a part time job, perhaps it's b/c 40 years ago women didn't make up as much of the work force and so the seniored positions today such as CEO's and things of that nature are naturally passed on to the more tenured experienced people of that profession..and that accounts for why more women are not in high profile, big money jobs...but as the years pass and more women join the work force and move up, I think that we will see the numbers even out as far as pay. In my company, which is one of the largest banks in the country, the ratio of men to women is about 9:1 in favor of the women and that includes positions of high stature!
I can honestly say that at no time in my life have I ever felt taken advantage of or discriminated against because I am a woman! Sometimes IMHO I think that people use discrimination as a tool to their advantage, a reason to make themselves feel better about why they haven't made something more of their life ect..in my opinion in today's world you're only discriminated against as a women if you allow yourself to be, why buy into that junk? I can't believe that any of you who DO feel as though women are discrimated against aren't out being activists for our cause!
Man if I felt that way, I sure wouldn't settle for it!

texasp3 replied:

I think fathers should have an EQUAL CHANCE at getting custody of their children and not be ruled out just because they are male.

To me, that's quite different than saying men should get custody 50% of the time.

I don't think equality is about artificially dividing everything into equal little heaps... I think it's about a level playing field. And that's an awfully complicated thing to achieve!

texasp3 replied:
Well, he's trying to communicate SOMETHING. I believe he is saying "Woman, get OFF that computer and come cater to my every whim!" Of course, I believe he would be saying that if he was an 11 month old girl!

jolene555 replied: Oh My God ladies!!! I post a question and 12 hours later I come back to find 3 pages of replies!?!?! Apparently it will be taking me longer than this 15 minute break between classes to read up and pose any decent questions. I will however, mention my stance.

I am finding it hard to be in a class lead by, and full of, proud feminists. Hard in a way that they are very convincing. Feminists support a women's choice to have children, and the choice to stay at home with them or to work. They support women as a whole, and I find that very refreshing. We are now in an era given the name of "Thrid Wave Feminism", which essencially means 3rd generation. Third Wave includes more than just sex equality, but also racial, age, and much more.

In class we discussed feminist literature, so that evening I went to Borders and picked up and independent media magizine entitled "Bitch" - a feminist view on pop culture. I began reading, and was agreeing with everything. There was an article about how in modern tv it is still taboo to mention a woman's period, and one on Dove's new advertisement campaign showing the true beauty of women as individuals. I'm thinking "yes, I am a feminist!" It was grand, that is, until I reached the next article . . .

An entire 5 page spread dedicated to praising the new marketing campaign by Planned Parenthood - black t-shirts that plainly read in white letters "I HAD AN ABORTION." The column goes on and on about how wonderful it is that a women's body is her own, and it's her choice, and now we are able to show each other, and our daughters (no less) that having an abortion is "nothing to be ashamed about". I was completely disgusted. Before I started to cry I closed the magizine and proceeded to through it in the trash.

Doing more research I've found that all feminism is based on the ideal of pro-choice. Proudly I tell you all that is that's what it means to be feminist I shall never be.

I believe in raising my daughter to be strong and proud, and that I demand equal treatment and respect, and I believe in living a life of my choosing, whether it be unshaven feminist or wife, mother, and God-fearing. For the oppertunity to do these things I thank the feminists who came before me.

Thank you all for any and all responces. *MUAH*

A&A'smommy replied: WOW WOW WOW I have learned a lot today and thank you ladies for helping me to really know what I believe!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Thank you Jo for clearing that up. I'm so glad you have the first hand knowledge of what it means to be a feminist by today's standards (since so much has changed in the past 50 or so years)



I totally agree. I guess if that IS what it means, then I am not a feminist and like you, I am proud of that. (not to start another debate)

5littleladies replied:
I think feminisim today and feminism 50 years ago are 2 totally different things. The definition you have presented is the one I have always thought of as feminism. Jo-I totally agree with you!

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well IMHO, I will say this. I am proud of the feminist who gave me the right to do what I want with my body. It is my body and my choice. It may not be the right choice for you, and it may in essence not be the right choice for me, but it is mine to make now.

It maybe the choice my 13 year old daughter makes when someone slips something into her drink at a pep rally and things go really down hill from there.

It will be because some fought for that right, be it right or wrong.

I think femineism, like religion, and polictics all very different parts that make the whole. No one feels the same about God, or the president. But it takes all kinds! And I think it is great we have a voice to make decisions for ourself.

I can live alone as a single mother to daughters and work very hard and get an educate to better myself and everyone else. And someone will say to me, I am proud of what you are doing when 30 years ago, they would have been ashamed of me!


By the way I was raised soley by a man, who raised me to be a strong woman. And my thoughts always mattered to him, and he told me I could be a mom, or I could be president..but what ever I was to do my best and he would be proud!

And I would also like to thank the person who fought for us everytime I use a tampon instead of those diapers with belts that were just mean and nasty!..lo;

I wanted to edit my post to say that I feel something like an abortion should not be on a T shirt! No that is just stupid. To me that is a very private choice, one I prefer not to know about. I would be upset to see that up and down the street!

jolene555 replied: I'm starting to get through the replies slowly, but I thought I would make one small comment on whether or not feminism has fully succeed. I think the majority of you have it correct when you say that we are, in no way, finished becomoing equal.

as i mentioned before, this new Third Wave feminism includes more than sexism. Until every individual in this country is equal, whether male, female, black, white, gay, strait, Islam, Catholic, purple stripes, or maroon polka dots - there is still more work for the "feminists" to do. And I am sure that no one will disagree that we're not there, yet.

I also wanted to note on the pro-choice thing. Politically I have to admit that I am pro-choice, and in the aftermath of reading the "I HAD AN ABORTION" article I've taken a stark emotional stance on the issue. I'm wondering if there's a magical line that must exist that feminists need be careful of. For instance - I will support their efforts to be equal, and to maintain their right to have a "choice", but I will not tolerate having your "choice" shoved in my face as I'm walking down the street. I believe that another reason I am not a true feminist is that I would fight for what I want and be satisfied when I got it, where as they never seem satisfied with anything. They want more, and they want it now, lol.

Sorry, I shouldn't comment so soon after class. I do love a good arguement. And just so y'all know, my paper is entitled "Who is feminism?" If I get a decent grade I'll be sure to share.

jcc64 replied:

That's great- Nichole, I'm glad you've had such a positive experience. Unfortunately, not everyone has had the same good fortune you've had, and I think it's wrong to assume that your experience is the benchmark for what is normal or typical for every woman out there. As a younger woman early in my working career many years ago, I was victimized by a male superior. In no way did I ALLOW myself to be discriminated against, it was a simple reality of workplace culture at that time (it was in the 80's). There was no such thing as filing sexual harassment charges and the like, or if there was, it wasn't in the common lexicon. Had it happened today, things would be different. And again, that's thanks in large part to some brave women who put themselves out there on the front lines. But don't for a second think that just because it hasn't happened to you that it isn't happening to someone else.

coasterqueen replied: Wow, I didn't know feminism started with pro-choice.

Edit****(disregard top sentence) I meant that I didn't know that feminism was based on the ideal of pro-choice (which I think you mean abortion..or do you mean pro-choice in general????)

I will openly admit I am pro-choice for many reasons. I do not look down on anyone for their chocies, albeit being pro-choice or not. It's their decision and that's that. Just like we, as women have been given lots of opportunities to make decisions we weren't long ago.

texasp3 replied: Um... where did this idea that feminism started out with pro-choice come from? Historically, the roots of feminism lie in the anti-slavery movement.

Here's a nice little summary:

"As an organized force, feminism dates from abolitionism in the early 1830s.(5) Abolitionism was the radical anti-slavery movement which demanded the immediate cessation of slavery on the grounds that every man was a self-owner; that is, every human being has moral jurisdiction over his or her own body. It was the first organized, radical movement in which women played prominent roles and from which a woman's movement sprang. Abbie Kelley (1810-1887), an abolitionist-feminist, observed: "We have good cause to be grateful to the slave, for the benefit we have received to ourselves, in working for him. In striving to strike his irons off, we found most surely that we were manacled ourselves."(6)

Please see http://www.zetetics.com/mac/fem1.htm for the full paper and appropriate credit.

5littleladies replied: I think the idea is that feminism today-not historically, seems to have strong roots in the pro-chioce movement.

coasterqueen replied:
OOps, I'll edit my post. I re-read what she said and she said that feminism is based on the ideal of pro-choice. Sorry.

Boys r us replied:
Please don't assume that I am nieve enough to think that there are women out there who aren't treated as they should be, of course there are! Just like there are men and children who aren't treated with respect..but as a whole I think that women have come a long way in this society and are for the most part treated equally! We have diversity workshops here at work and we have frequently had roundtables discussing where certain "minority" groups still felt dominated in our current society and one thing we all agreed upon was that, as women, we felt equal. So I'm not setting any benchmark of standard on MY LONE OPINION!
It's easy to let yourself be victimized no matter what sex, race or sexual orientation you are...that doesn't mean it's from lack of equality due to your difference.
This is MY OPINION..which is what was asked of all of us and no matter how "WRONG" you want to believe I am, I'd sincerly appreciate it if you utilized some sort of self control by not blatantly bashing sharing MY OPINION! thanx!

gr33n3y3z replied: That seems to be a problem sometimes on the boards
Thats why I keep my mouth shut for the most part!!
I mean not everyone will agree with what ppl. type but I think for the most part they should respect others feeling and what I see they dont.
I could make a list of stuff that I dont agree with but I dont ( I'm old enough to be most of your mothers) So I've been around a long time to see where things that ppl. think and do will not work BUT I keep my mouth shut.
I dont want to hurt anyones feelings and I wish other ppl. would respect others feeling also Its a long haul but it can be done.

MomToMany replied: That's why I don't like participating in debates either. I'll just read through everyone else's respones and maybe learn something.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I decided to do the research on my own. I'm so confused at this point.

kimberley replied: there are no right or wrong answers here... just personal opinions based on one's own experiences and beliefs. lets just agree to disagree and learn something from each other. and keep in mind, you can produce facts to a person in a million different ways, if they chose not to believe, you can't force them.

A&A'smommy replied:
same here

TANNER'S MOM replied: I was telling Dh about out our debate last night. My son Justin who is 10, says well I have a question..if all are equal

Why can you never hit a girl? No matter what she says I can't it her?


Well, I said son b/c mostly boys and men are stronger and will hurt her. But you said we are equal mom..??

So, I am raising pig?? Who knows?? But he knows not to hit a woman, and to open a door for one, am I sitting the movement back?

kimberley replied: women shouldn't hit men either. it is just barbaric behaviour... it's not about feminism or not imho. and only the extremists view kind acts of chivalry to be "degrading" and i don't believe any of us are exremists, are we?

coasterqueen replied:
Very well said. It was nice having this discussion, though. Ryan and I had a GREAT discussion about this last night. We learned a lot about each other and then there were some things we already knew each other knew about the subject. I'm actually glad we were able to discuss this last night. I love having thought-provoking conversations with my husband.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Exactly. Women shouldn't hit men. I think parents should teach their daughters this just as they would teach their sons.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
We did too Karen! It was nice to have this discussion with Scotty. I never knew how he felt about it until last night. I'm glad this opened the door and I agree that it was healthy.

My2Beauties replied: Oh my goodness I need to put my boots on because the *poop* is getting deep OK on a serious note, Nichole I don't think that Jeanine meant for you to get upset, I think she was stating her opinion about your opinion - does that even make sense Anyways here is what I think for what my 2 cents is worth...I believe the majority of you are right too in that we are nowhere near the end of being equal, I still witness women being put below men everywhere (home, school, work, etc..) everyday!! But that being said I believe that feminism gives women the choice to do what they want I think if a woman wants to stay at home with her children then they should have the right to do so without anyone looking down upon them, I think if they want to work that women who do not work shall not look at them as if "how could you not be home with your children and let someone else raise them!" A SAHM is a real career in my opinion, those who do it I envy you, I don't have the patience I would go cuckoo at home all day long. I need to work! Nor do I have the choice either way, if I didn't work we wouldn't be able to afford anything hardly I believe that if a woman wants her husband to make the final decision in her household, then that is her business, period! I personally could never be subsevient to my SO, I just feel it's equal all the way around...from housework, child-rearing, bringing in the dough etc...but again that is my opinion and my choice! I think if a woman wants to stand out in the cold with 50 MEN on a construction site framing houses or buildings or putting on roofs or whatever...then that is wonderful for them! I think women are fully capable of doing things that men do, whether it be construction or getting that lid off that damn jar....yes of course we ask our husbands to do it when it's hard to open, but when Brian isn't there, I pull that ol' butter knife out of the drawer and smack the side of it and off it comes, it eventually comes off, YES I can do it, maybe not as fast as him but I can do it! So, am I a feminist - YES because that is what I choose my definition of a feminist to be! I think women should be equal in the choices that they make - and same with men, because I think that SAHD's are wonderful people too and should not be looked down upon for doing so!!! Thanks for listening guys!!!

TANNER'S MOM replied: Lea Ann, I think you make very good points. I don't any of have meant to hurt anyones feelings....

And I agree with your whole piont!

TANNER'S MOM replied:
Just a question to that...

How many times have you heard, and I think us women with older children will agree...have you heard...

Don't hit your sister, you don't hit girls.

Now you get onto you girls for hitting too. But you simply say, don't hit...you don't say don't hit boys.. Or don't hit him b/che is a boy...

I am just stating I know it is wrong to hit anyone, so do my children. But some of these sexist things are things I teach my own children..

I realize in saying that I am teaches my son not to hit "GIRLS" b/c they are weaker...what am I doing????

kimberley replied: i think the reason it has been singled out as "men should not hit women" is because domestic violence is so prevalent in today's society. you don't often hear of a man being beat half to death by his wife. partly because a lot of men would fight back and win and partly because the one's who are abused are too ashamed to report it. back in the day (even when my parents were married), spousal abuse was ignored. people believed it was a husband's right to discipline his wife and the woman had no right to argue. men have never had to fight that discrimination that they are not a person and that their spouse has "ownership" over them.

i think teaching your son not to hit girls is important, but teaching him that no girl should ever beat on him is equally important. it can happen. violence is wrong no matter where it stems from and we want to teach our kids not to be predators or victims, kwim?

jolene555 replied: I've not had to deal with the "don't hit girls" thing in a parenting sence, but I have a comment on some things said. I agree that hitting and fighting are practices that disgust me terribly, but I also know that circumstances rise in our children's lives where they may need to defend themselves. I think this is where "don't hit girls" comes in. I would teach my future sons to always defend themselves, but to never, under any circumstance, hit a girl or anyone smaller than he.

The fact is that men and women are not physically equal, but that's not what you need to tell your boys.

MommyToAshley replied: Wow, look what I missed.

I have learned a lot from reading this post, and I am glad that we can have healthy debates here. Now, I want to go edit the title of my post in the 1-3 year forum about Ashley being a feminist. I am not sure that fits the definition everyone is using for feminist.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
LOL! When I saw that I was thinking "Look! What is Dee Dee trying to start now??" J/K!

kimberley replied:
LMBO! i thought the same thing! (jokingly of course )

Josie83 replied:
I agree. These discussions are interesting but sometimes it ends in people's feelings getting hurt. I don't want to be responsible for that! I have enjoyed reading everyone's replies, though xx

MommyToAshley replied:
I wasn't trying to start trouble, honestly. I hadn't seen this thread yet, but I can imagine what everyone thought.