do you think kids can be passive aggressive? - long....

cameragirl21 wrote: i had an interesting discussion with my friend Pam, mother to a five year old daughter, Brooke the other day and wonder what some of you may think on this subject.
some of you may remember Daniela, one of my little models, she's the one who posed with the bobcat with that boy, Jordan who gave her his chocolate. anyway, Daniela lives in the same neighborhood as Pam and Brooke so the two girls are friends and Pam has become friendly with Daniela's mother. at any rate, Daniela has always been one of my best models and i've always said she is the perfect child in that she rarely complains and she does whatever i tell her to. it's not to say she doesn't have her moments but she wears whatever i tell her to wear, whereas when Pam wants me to take Brookie's pictures, i pick out an outfit and Brookie will say, "i'm not gonna wear that." then it's, "i don't want to wear my hair down, i don't want to sit over there, i don't want to do this, i don't want to do that, etc." Pam has a tendency to ask Brooke if she wants to do pretty much everything and as a result, Brookie decides when she'll get her haircut, when she'll eat, what she'll eat, when she'll sleep, etc.
Daniela's mom is on the other end of the spectrum and suffice it to say that i can always count on the fact that she will always have Daniela under her control and like i said, Daniela certainly has her moments but they're very rare and her mom pretty much always can get her to do anything she tells her to. that said, Pam and Daniela's mom are at odds on this one--Pam feels that D's mom always tells D where to go and what to do and that kids should be allowed to make some of their own choices while D's mom tells Pam that she'll have big problems with Brookie as she gets older because she gives her way too many choices and cannot always get B to do what she wants. Pam says that's just the way B is, and this started at B's birth pretty much, when she'd only sleep with Pam or she wouldn't sleep at all, etc.
at any rate, Pam has been my friend for over 10 years now so of course i love Brookie because she's my good friend's daughter but i was explaining to Pam that the reason i never use B as a model whereas i'm always eager to use D is because D does what i tell her to and B won't even always do what Pam tells her to and more often than not, Pam has to bribe her somehow just to do basic things.
while Pam and i were talking about this, she mentioned that D is not as wonderful as i think...she says that sometimes when B and D are playing, B will ask D not to do something and D will continue doing it, knowing full well it's not what B wants. this seems passive aggressive and i'm a bit surprised because at five years old, i didn't think they'd be passive aggressive yet.
on the other hand, B is used to getting what she wants and maybe what she doesn't want D to do is just absurd and it's not so much p/a but rather just normal kids' stuff.
i'm curious what any or all of you have experienced with regard to this. i must say, i'm not the only one who thinks D is direct from heaven...i work with a face painter who asked me to get a group of kids together to be painted...D was the youngest and she said the only one who sat perfectly still and closed her eyes when told and kept them closed till told otherwise...for a face painter whom she didn't know and never met! while the other kids squirmed, fidgeted and had their requests and issues, D sat like a statue till told otherwise. i didn't dare even invite B, that would have been a disaster and Pam knew it. but the face painter marvelled at D and so do all the animal handlers who own the animals that i photograph her with. she's literally a dream. but now i'm wondering if she might be p/a, if that is her way of dealing with everyone telling her what to do...Pam says she tends to put her desires on the backburner for others, which IS rare for a five year old from what i've seen. so maybe it would make sense that she's p/a.
have any of you experienced this in kids?

mom2my2cuties replied: Well it sounds like Brooke is a spoiled rotten brat and IS going to be serious trouble for her parents when she gets older. Kids definately need boundaries not to be given so much control until they are really old enough for it. And it doesn't sound like she is.

As far as being P/A I don't know about that. I know kids learn early on how to manipulate others, but that doesn't really sound liket he case,.

moped replied: Personally Jennifer, and I am sure this will not be taken the right way, but we are talking about 2 children playing, no 2 children are the same. They have been raised differently by different parents who have different values........don't you think this is a bit over analytical to say that one is passive agressive because of how she plays with her freind??????

moped replied: I need to add that it is VERY normal for children to act differently when their parents are around (mine is worse), he can be a perfect angel for everyone in the world and I am sure would sit still and do exactly what a photographer wanted, but get him with me alone he can be a different child. This is normal childhood behavior IMO.

I can't tell you how many people tell me how great Jack is and how wonderful he is and how did I raise such a well behaved obedient child....I laugh because he can be a real idiot at home with me and I laugh......he is a child.

cameragirl21 replied: well, Jen, the reason i bring it up and say it may be p/a is because that is what Pam said when i was telling her why i am always eager to use D for shoots and why it's a struggle to photograph B.
obviously i didn't witness it so i don't know exactly what happened but Pam made it sound like D is p/a and that this is her outlet for the fact that she's always doing what others tell her even if it's not what she necessarily wants to do.
i'm just curious what the experiences of others have been with regard to possible p/a behavior in kids, i'm not here to diagnose D, she'll be modeling for me for many years to come, p/a or not, i'm just curious from an academic standpoint (i have an advanced degree in psych) so it's simply curiosity.
if anyone is upset or offended by the question or my perceived judgement then i assure you it wasn't my intention.

moped replied:
I understand your curiosity, but again, we are just talking about 2 children..........

lisar replied: Well I dont think passive aggressive would be correct. Mainly cause Lexi and my sisters kid play together all the time. They play like that. Its thier age. One wants to do something the other dont. So the one gets mad about it. Thats normal. And Lexi will be a perfect angel when she with anyone but me. As soon as I show up she is hell on wheels. Ofcourse I will put her in her place. But, with the playing with other kids I think most kids do that. They all get aggervated cause one wants to do one thing while the other one wants to do something diffrent but they want each other to do that what they want. I think that part is normal though. As far as passive aggressive goes I dont think I would say that much though.

cameragirl21 replied: i should add that the parents are always there when i'm shooting the kids...they're just watching and have little active involvement in what's happening but i won't shoot the kids if a parent or some close relative by blood or adoption is not on site.
i agree the kids are always better for everyone but the parents, that goes without saying with most kids.
bear in mind though that Daniela is really not quite like most kids...she is what we in the business refer to as a "working child". she is a model, she works. and i find myself continually amazed at how good these kids are and how much they understand so i guess i'm wondering if perhaps there is a downside to this seeming precocity in these working kids.
i realize that kids don't always get along when they play, but what Pam described (in her opinion based on her observation of course) is that D was purposely doing things that B kept asking her not to. it wasn't simple playing stuff but it seemed like something that she knew would upset B. on the other side, B is way too easily upset IMO, again JMO.
i'm just wondering if anyone has experienced this sort of quiet resentment as opposed to tantrums. D doesn't tantrum, and i've known her since she was 2 and in my experience she never has, whereas B still does all the time. obviously kids are all different but i'm wondering if can be that a kid is already kind of like a grownup or teen in a kid's body, where they grin and bear it but then let it out thru other outlets, kwim?

jcc64 replied: Sure it's possible for a kid to be passive aggressive. I consider that personality trait to be pretty subconscious, so while the kid may not understand that is what she is doing or why, it is a common coping mechanism for adults and kids alike. I have a kid like that- my 14 yo always comes off looking like the model child- polite, non confrontational- but believe me, he is very clever at quietly engineering various situations to his benefit. I don't necessarily think your model's p/a tendency is due to any abberation in her mother's parenting style- it's probably just who she is. No one is THAT GOOD all the time, right?

mom2my2cuties replied:

A lot of kids are like this I think. I see it in mine all the time. But I wouldn't call it passive agressive. I think it's the way we as humans learn to handle things. P/A behavior is intentional, it's not a coping mechanisim.

ETA - Jeanne's post made me explain my last statements. I believe the behaivor is more subconcious in adults...and after a while as adults it becomes part of our nature. But what you are describing, realy sounds more like just kids playing and expressing thier differences than something else.

Also, something that strikes me. If these kids fight so much when they are together about whatever it is that bothers the one girl, why do the parents keep putting them in that situation, it could be that they simply don't like each other and no matter WHAT the situation is they will not get along.

cameragirl21 replied:
oh, i agree, if D is p/a it's certainly not her mother's fault, that is not what i meant at all. i was just wondering if this is common or if others have experienced it. all the kids i work with are very well behaved (for me at least) or i'd not work with them but D is almost pure perfection and i'm curious if this is just her nature and if she's already releasing her frustrations thru this outlet.

lisar replied:
I have to say I agree with Tish. P/A is intentional.

Wanting to add I am not debating I just agree.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I'm sorry. Just because B asked D not to do something is NO REASON for the mom to think she's "not so wonderful".

It's not passive agressive, it's called 5 year old playing withj a toy "her way" and nobody is going to tell her to do it otherwise. It's a TOY. She's a child. It's a child thing to do, it IS passive agressive, but I don't think she's doing it because she is passive agressive, it's just a child thing to do.

Pam is probaby getting her panties in a bunch becuase her "baby" isn't geting her way for once.

jcc64 replied: I think ALL kids have the capacity to be rotten at any given time, and I'm sure your little model is no exception. If being "good" is an intrinsic part of her identity, then she probably is a little more adept at finding outlets for the less desirable aspects of her personality. As I said, I see this ALL the time between my two boys- the "good" one is basically just sneakier and better at not getting caught doing something wrong.

moped replied:
That is so funny, because I see Jack being quite sneaky as well at only 2!!!!

inmom2two replied:
I have to laugh because I was like that. I was the little angel in public, but if people knew what I instigated, well...let's just say that it would have been ugly. Now when I help out in the classroom and the teacher says so and so is so cooperative and sweet, you can bet that's who I'm keeping a close eye on
I suppose that it's possible to be p/a at that young of an age, but it sounds like normal kid's stuff.