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ok, here's a question....


cameragirl21 wrote: Ok...I'm once again going to tread very lightly and I am so NOT looking to start a debate, I just want to understand and my "Jennifer, stay out of this" radar is going off like crazy but I seriously am curious what some of you have to say.
Ok, so some of you mentioned that you feel a reverse racism, so to speak, in that your majority (Christian based) beliefs are being cast aside, etc while minority beliefs, like my own for instance are getting special privileges.
Ok, so I thought about this and...we get all Christian holidays off as federal holidays but I would have to take a day off to celebrate my Jewish holidays back when I worked for someone. Yet had I wanted to work on Christmas Day, it would not have been an option for me. Also, in school, I learned about the medieval period, the Renaissance, the crusades, reformation, pilgrims coming to this land, etc...isn't this Christian history?
If we were to have true equality then no one would get their holidays off and you'd have to ask to get Christmas as a day off, then we would all truly be equal. I'm certainly not advocating this, just trying to understand, for those of you who feel your beliefs are not given enough preference by our govt or culture--what would you like if you had your way?

PrairieMom replied: Oh Jennifer... laugh.gif I'm not ignoring the post, I just need to stew on it for a while. wink.gif

luvmykids replied: If we had true equality everyone would get all their holidays off laugh.gif

I don't have the energy at the moment to concisely express myself on a topic that is deeply personal to me and that I'm currently irate over (nothing to do with PC, outside events IRL) I'm too steamed right now tongue.gif

holley79 replied: I think I am not going to touch this controversial topic. Whatever I say someone is going to think of it as a direct attack against someone here so it is better left alone. You all have fun with this.

moped replied: Too much drama on this post - even for me

Anthony275 replied: i feel that you're just defending judaism for no reason. i mean, nobodys doing any personal attacks on it and you're backing it up for no reason really. just my 2¢. unsure.gif

cameragirl21 replied:
huh.gif I'm not sure what you mean, I'm not defending or not defending anything.
I'm just asking the majority what they think would be fair.
I didn't realize this would upset or confuse anyone, to me it seems like a very legitimate and straight forward question. I just wanted to understand what the majority would consider to be fair to the Christian religion.
I'm not expressing any opinion, just asking a question, what would make you think I'm defending anything?

Anthony275 replied: but why do you have to bring it up? it kinda just came up out of nowhere. not kinda necessary in here

cameragirl21 replied:
It was brought up in another thread where others were saying that they feel the minority has become a conglomerate majority, it hardly came up out of nowhere, it's a spinoff from another thread.
So I figured I'd ask what they think is fair if they have said that what is happening is not fair.
I didn't realize it would make anyone uncomfortable, it's rare that I express no opinion and ask others to express theirs. laugh.gif

Insanemomof3 replied: I have no idea what to say except I feel that all religous holidays should be given, NOT just Christian holidays. The whole majority rules things just plain sucks and I don't agree with it at all. Just my opinion.

luvbug00 replied: why not just ban taking off all religous holidays so it's fair to everyone because if we decided to abide by every religon's holiday in the world there would be very few days that are left to work.. I dunno about you all but i sure need the money happy.gif

cameragirl21 replied:
ITA with this except the problem is that there are many religions out there, new ones (cults for instance) are formed everyday and if we gave equal importance to all of them then everyday would be a holiday of some sort and we'd get no work done whatsoever. laugh.gif
If you insist that it should just be for the major religions then you'd have people like my Pagan friend saying that religious equality should extend to every religion, including hers.
So it's a tough call.
I ask this because I have never been in the majority so I have never expected fairness. I presume (although I don't know for sure) that if you are in the majority then you are more accustomed to fairness or what is perceived as being fair so I'm curious when I hear the majority say they are not being treated fairly (and I'm not saying anyone is wrong to say so, I simply don't know, which is why I'm asking) I'd be curious to know what would be considered fair.
I am kind of surprised, to be honest, that no one has any concrete answers when in fact this topic has been brought up here many times and many were very vocal about the unfairness of it. It makes me think that maybe the whole concept of fairness is, in reality, elusive to all of us, both majority and minority.

luvbug00 replied: alas i am not in the majority so I do not have any problem whipeing any religous holiday from my work schdual. I feel like people should be given rights by their employers to take the holidays if they so deem fit. that's all i really can say about the matter happy.gif

Insanemomof3 replied: Ok, you are right...what I was saying was that it should be fair NO MATTER WHAT. Either give all holidays, majority or not...or take them ALL away. I just don't think it is fair at all.

Mommy2Isabella replied: umm ... what I say will leave me attacked battered and bruised I am SURE! So .. you guys have fun with this!

luvmykids replied:
I do have a concrete opinion, however, as you said in your opening post, this is a topic that gets easily heated. It's been debated before and I, personally, didn't like the way it went, so I'm learning from the past and not going there again wink.gif laugh.gif

Our Lil' Family replied: This country was founded on Christian beliefs and values, hence the Christian holidays being observed. I wouldn't expect another country to change their holidays because a bunch of Americans moved over there for work.

cameragirl21 replied:
ok, Mon, fair enough. Then would you mind pm'ing me your thoughts? I have no desire to argue it, I just want to know what would be fair from your perspective. For me it's another opportunity to gain knowledge and insight.
I feel misunderstood all the time and actually a friend of mine last night was telling me that Jews in principle are misunderstood by pretty much everyone so I figure it is only proper that I make an effort to understand others so I would like to understand where you are coming from.

TLCDad replied:
One word. Exactly. But every employee should be able to take off work for any of their religious holidays.... which would be no different then requesting any day off.

cameragirl21 replied: I just want to state for the record, in case there is any confusion or misunderstanding that I never said, implied or thought that Chrisian holidays should not be considered federal holidays or that anyone should not automatically get those days off. I am just curious as to what would be considered fair. Since I am not in the majority and never will be, I never expected fairness and never thought about what I think would be fair, for me there is no fairness because if I said that I expect my holidays to also be considered federal holidays then every religion in the US, major and minor would jump on the bandwagon and everyday would be a holiday so to me, I expect that it won't be fair and I am happy that I can get my holidays off without any problem...to deny me a day off (if I worked for someone for instance) would be considered a violation of the law so to me, that is fair enough.
It never occurred to me that the majority would be downtrodden, shafted, or made to feel as if they're being treated unfairly so I'm curious what then would be considered fair and equitable to the majority.
I have no reason to argue, we will not change anything here, I just want to be able to understand where others are coming from.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied: IMO there is no such thing as fair. No true equality. Yes our country was founded on Christian beliefs. But we are also, more than any other country, a melting pot. It is a core of who we are as Americans.
I grew up in Wyoming, a state where livestock outnumbers humans by probably more than 3 to 1. To say there was little diversity is an understatement. I knew exactly 1 African-American family and 1 Jewish family in our entire town. When I was 14, my family moved to New Jersey. Huge culture shock, a post in itself. But I bring it up because in NJ, I had holidays off school that I had never heard of before. We had days off for several major Jewish holidays and I heard several students reprimanded by teachers for eating in class on fasting days. (Jewish students, they wouldn't have cared if I'd eaten something.) Our school year lasted nearly 2-1/2 weeks longer than my school schedule in Wyoming. And in Wyoming we had built in days off for snow. It is impossible to give everyone off every holiday. I work in a hospital, people don't stop getting sick on holidays, sometimes it seems like there's more heart attacks on the big eating holidays. If a holiday falls on a scheduled day for me to work, I work the holiday. If I'm scheduled to be off, I'm off. I'm off Christmas and Thanksgiving this year, but I'll be working New Year's Eve and Day. I suppose true equality would be like this. If it's a day you'd normally work, you work it. If not (ie Sat or Sun), you don't. However, it'll never happen. Anyway, IMO, fair doesn't exist and the sooner people realize that life isn't fair, the happier people are.

ETA I normally avoid these controversial posts, so I know it's a surprise for anyone to see me post. Couldn't help myself here.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I haven't read all the replies so I am just going to jump in with both feet (which I promised myself last night I was not going to do on this one rolleyes.gif ) This country was founded on faith, Christian faith to be exact. The beauty of that remains I get to take off my holidays and if you don't want to practice with me then you don't have too! The SS will not be coming into your home to make sure the creche is there. You can celebrate or not. Santa or Jesus or both. Nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to do...Same goes for Easter.Go to church or don't. Hunt Eggs or don't. You were given a day off (some places don't even do that on Monday following Easter) not an edict as to what you have to do with it. Other religions DO have the ability to celebrate their 'holy' days if they so choose...they are called personal days or paid vacation wink.gif

coasterqueen replied: Interesting topic. One I think if we are all mature can debate this without it turning into personal attacks or too heated. I, for one, have wondered this very question but it hurt my head too much to think about it so I didn't. happy.gif blush.gif

I find Rod's and Kelly's replies very intriguing and ones to ponder on for sure.

I am not sure what the answer is. We do, as a country, pride ourselves on equality and everyone being equal so if that is the case then should we do something that is more "equal" when it comes to holidays? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think no one should be punished in any way if they wanted to take a religious holiday off from work whether it's observed or not.

It is kind of amusing to think about this because I'm Lutheran. Most of the population (that seems to matter) in our town is Catholic. They sort of "rule the roost" so-to-speak in our town and if you aren't Catholic you really don't seem to matter - especially in a very politically charged community as the one I live in. So any Catholic traditions/practices, especially in my work culture and DH's work culture, is considered ok and welcomed. Any other religion traditions or practices aren't.

So not only IMO is there not equality among the different religions besides Christian religion, but Christians themselves don't treat each other with the same equality.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well or making my reply worse. Please forgive me if I am making it worse. Religion in my community is a very sore subject because you really are treated VERY DIFFERENTLY in the private work sector if you are not Catholic. I am not bashing Catholics, I'm just trying to say that the different Christian religions don't even try to be "equal" in a sense.

momtoMegan&Alyxandria replied: I read through all of the posts and I kinda have to agree with MyBrownEyedBoy and Coasterqueen.

This country was founded on Christian beliefs, however from the day the doors were opened at Ellis Island it hasn't been fair. America is a Country built on our cultures with different religious beliefs.

In a truly fair country based on the fact that the majority of the people are or were imigrants why couldn't it be said that there are no set federal holidays only that (and just throwing out names, sorry if I use any of yours this is just an example) Mary is Christian and she can take the christian holidays off, and Jean is Jewish and she can take the jewish holidays off, and Sri is Muslim and she can have all the Islamic holidays off. And all the other religions would do the same. The offices wouldn't be closed the majority of the time because not all the holidays fall on the same days for different religions. If a company hires all christians then on
the chirstian holidays the office would be closed. But then what do you do about the Atheists? That I think is a whole other topic.

No matter what is done or said there is always going to be a group of people that are not treated equally as another group. With a country that is home to so many different people that will never happen.

lovemy2 replied: wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif

TheOaf66 replied: The only thing I want to say about this one is that these "religious" holidays are getting far from. Christmas isn't about God anymore, it is about marketing and profits. It is a day that many people of all religions make there one day at (Church, Mass, Temple) and think that clears them for the year. Offices are closed that day so people can spend time with families or whatever, religion has very little to do with it. The other holidays that you get off for (Labor Day, Independence Day, Memorial Day) are not religious. Most people who would normally work sundays don't get off for Easter. Some places do let people go for a little while on Good Friday but not all. Thanksgiving is a family gathering holiday and has nothing to do with religion. Religion on these holidays plays little if any part of businesses being closed.

lovemy2 replied:
Welcome to America all - Well said Troy -

I have a totally different view of "holidays" now that I have a husband who is a cop - if he is scheduled to watch the dirt bags of our county (he is a jail deputy) he misses out on the WHOLE of Christmas which in our family is about both religion and yes being American - its about the presents and also about the kids being excited about Santa and all the wonderful family traditions we have and have started with our kids....

If he is scheduled to watch the dirt bags on Thanksgiving - we eat later - if he is scheduled to watch the dirt bags on the countries birthday - I go to the picnics alone...

You get the idea................

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Actually I've wondered the same thing in the past. from my experience in working with the federal government... there are some standard calendar holidays, which everyone gets off, paid, no matter what religion. (and I"m only talking public sector here, not private.) If, for example, you are Jewish, and wish to take the jewish holidays off, that's something you discuss with your employer. So not only do you have the Christian Holidays which EVERYONE gets off, you can have your own religion's holidays as well. AND - if you wish to come in and work on the Christian holidays, you can... but what's the point? There's no onr around!!


As for the calendar haveing the standard holidays which are christian, let's not forget that even though North America was populated by my ancestors, it WAS the Christian faith that came over and spread so called "civilisation"...only natural that Christian holidays are the norm....and "equality" is a thing of the recent past, not something that has been ongoing for centuries.

In the private sector, depends who you're working for I guess...I've had to work Christmas day before. Who cares? emlaugh.gif

As far as I'm concerned...I think it should just be you pick 10 or 15 Holiday days and then a # of vacation days. that way you can pick your religion's holidays, and work the rest. End of story. rolleyes.gif Besides...people get hired for their SKILLS, not for the RELIGION.

TheOaf66 replied: at my job I have to use my vacation or PTO hours for my holiday pay

Boo&BugsMom replied: I don't know where anyone else grew up, but where I did if a student or employee wanted to take a religious holiday off, it was required of the employer/school (and still is) to allow the employee/student to do so without backlash. No matter WHAT religion it is. It's all in our rights as Americans. So, there is equality in that. The holidays that are considered federal holidays are not federal due to religion. Easter is not a federal holiday, and like Troy said, Christmas to many people is not just about Christ (even though it is to me), it's the one day people celebrate togetherness and it's called Christmas because that is where it started. This country was founded on Christian principles and if someone doesn't like it, move.

What I find UNFAIR, is when my child has a school "Holiday" (heaven forbid we say "Christmas" in case we offend anyone rolleyes.gif ) music program and songs about Hannukah and other holidays are sung, but nothing having to so with Christmas is mentioned! THANK GOD our district doesn't think this way and are still conservative in this way, but there are surrounding districts who do this. rolleyes.gif When I grew up the programs were a mish-mesh of everything, and I loved it. I have no probelems with my child singing about the Menorrah, but if that's the case, I better here "Away in a Manger" as well. wink.gif

It's freedom OF religion, NOT freedom FROM religion! BUT, someone down the line started getting "offended" by things and now people are all going crazy for fear of "offending" other people. rolleyes.gif

That's all I have to say, and I'm not saying anymore because I didn't write this to debate, I wrote it to just say my piece. Just my two cents...or three. laugh.gif

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Christine, this is a great reminder actually. There are a lot of people who work holdays, esp. those who work for the fed gov or in health care. Every Christmas we try to get together with Troy's side for Christmas, they live WAY up north. Sometimes we can't get together until after Christmas, but to us...we celebrate Christ's love/birth and togetherness every day anyways, so it really doesn't matter WHEN we do it...it's the act that matters, not the day. And, Christ wasn't really born in December anyway according to scholars. laugh.gif

Ok, so that wasn't the only thing I was going to say. laugh.gif

kit_kats_mom replied: Jennifer, you really do know how to stir things up. I for one, enjoy the mental stimulation and convos.

I don't have time to really write out much but I will say that as a non-Christian, I get really uncomfortable when religious topics come up in public places. I don't want to close my eyes and pray at a sporting event but I also don't want to be the only one looking around either. KWIM? I'll try to get on later and write more.

cameragirl21 replied: hmmm, ok, some interesting points have been brought up.
First and foremost, I agree that this is a Christian country in that Christians are the majority here, that much goes without saying.
To say it was founded on Christian principles is somewhat true but not entirely--first of all, notice that a sheriff's star is a six pointed star and there is a six pointed star on American currency...if you don't know what I'm getting at, check at an Israeli flag, you'll see that same six pointed star. This is no coincidence.
Our founding fathers, as I understand it, were Unitarians, and they sought out a mostly secular society, based on the Christian calendar. If we were a truly Christian nation everything would close down on Sundays. For instance, in Israel, nothing other than hospitals and other such necessities are open on Saturdays (and this is what I was told, I don't know this firsthand so please don't quote me on it but I bet that info can be found on the web if anyone is interested). They are a truly religious society even though their current govt and pretty much every govt they have had over the years were secular. Personally, I prefer it this way because while I feel Israel should always remain a Jewish nation, I fear if religious parties took power it may become a Jewish version of Iran.
That said, while we are founded on Christian principles we are a melting pot and I for sure agree that the majority should get their way mainly because I feel that when you go to the US (if you are a foreigner) you should make an effort to speak English and by the same token, when I visited Paris I spoke French to everyone instead of expecting them to speak English to me. What I mean here is that the majority is easiest to appease and if you choose to be a minority in a nation then you have to live with that reality.
I do think the fairest thing would be to give everyone a certain amount of floating holidays to take as they please but Idk how that would work in practical terms because I may choose to work Christmas Day but I doubt there'd be much of anything to do, no clients to deal with, etc so why bother? In the end, we all have to adjust to the norms of the majority and if we want equality we can only expect the majority to respect our rights as minorities, for those of us who are minorities.
As to someone saying that Christmas is not about God anymore, I couldn't agree more, I've wondered often why people celebrate Christmas by going into credit card debt but whose fault is that really? Retailers make a killing at Christmas, the estimate that I've been told is that 90% of their profits are made at Christmas but if people weren't buying this wouldn't be the case so Idk what you can really attribute that to. So I must say that it seems to me that those who celebrate Christmas are largely responsible for it being more about retail therapy than religion. This is not to blame everyone who celebrates Christmas but rather to say that you can't really blame anyone other than those who buy at Christmas time.
I will say that here we do get Jewish holidays off in public schools which really surprised me when I first heard of it because that sure wasn't the case when I was in school. Of course I grew up in Ohio and this is Miami where we have a huge Jewish population so again, I think much of it depends on the market and to whom you are ultimately catering.
People don't say Christmas break at school anymore because not everyone in today's schools celebrates Christmas and same goes for Easter vs spring break.
I can say that during the holidays, when I buy things and the cashier at the checkout says "Merry Christmas" to me I look her/him in the eye and politely respond, "Happy Holidays". I know this may be a point of contention with some but I don't think they should assume I celebrate Christmas and I don't think I (or anyone) should assume that anyone celebrates anything in particular or anything at all.
I'd be equally against everyone saying "Happy Hannukah" because again, not everyone celebrates Hannukah so why not say something that works for everyone and respects all beliefs?
Here is another question I have, and please be very honest, anyone who chooses to answer that is, do you think that the majority should be accomodated at the expense of minorities? In other words, do you think we should all have to say Merry Christmas and Christmas/Easter break to accomodate the majority and that minorities like myself should have to live with that if we choose to live in this majority Christian nation? This is not a trick question or anything malicious, I'm seriously wondering if that is what some would think is fair.
In other words, does fair mean that the majority always gets their way and the minorities can love it or leave it?
Remember that opinions are never wrong and I'm certainly not arguing nor do I intend to, I'm simply looking to learn so I can understand it from the other perspective. The key to everyone getting along imo is to understand things from the other perspective, which is why I'm asking and I'd rather hear the truth even if it may not be the truth I want to hear.

TheOaf66 replied:
I think it should not be overanalyzed. I think everyone should get to say what they believe in

Christians can say "Merry Christmas" to anyone and everyone
Jewish can say "Happy Hanukkah (sp?)" to anyone and everyone

etc etc

If people would stop getting so hung up on these pointless problems it would be a happier world. Everyone is waiting for someone (in their opinion) to oppress or offend them just so they can raise a stink. If people would learn to not take everything so seriously and not "sweat the petty stuff" and just get over it things would run smoother

Boo&BugsMom replied: Unitarianism is the belief in the single personality of God. It is the philosophy upon which the modern Unitarian movement was based, and, according to its proponents, is the original form of Christianity. They didnt' believe that Jesus was God, but it was Christianity, nonetheless.

Mommy2Isabella replied: Said I would stay out but ...

You mentioned Christmas break < thats not what it is atleast not here. It is winter break and I believe Kwanza and Hannukah< SP are included in that break as well or at least part of the holiday is included.

Also, it isn't EASTER break here, we don't get time off from school for easter, we have a SPRING break which the last sunday usually falls on EASTER but we return to school that monday!

I am in complete aggreance with Jeanie and Troy ... with that being sad ...

ETA: Also, no one is forced to say merry christmas, most people here anyways say happy holidays ... to avoid making anyone's bran crunch soggy KWIM??

cameragirl21 replied:
I'm really glad you enjoy the mental stimulation, Cary, you must be a fellow aquarian. laugh.gif
I'm rather surprised this thread is bothersome to anyone because:
a. Everyone is being very civil and no on is being bashed or insulted
b. The responses are very interesting
c. Everyone is getting a chance to express themselves and state their opinions and there is no arguing, just a good mix of ideas and
d. Participation is hardly required and no one has to partake of it if they don't to.
As our world is changing, controversy will become the norm, particularly if we start having more of these public magnet schools that tend to cater to a particular religious minority and as more and more minorities come this way. Already in my city, Spanish is spoken more than English and you'll do better here if you speak Spanish but no English instead of English but not Spanish.
I personally grabbed the opportunity to learn Spanish and have no problem with it but for some in my city, it's a major point of contention.
Our country is changing and in order for us to all try to get along, we should at least take the opportunity to see things from the other person's (religion's, nationality's, etc) perspective. The way I see it, there's already more than enough hatred and misunderstanding to go around.
Btw, Monica, if you are reading this, I wanted to add that you had mentioned in another post that you feel misunderstood, etc and I just wanted to say that I'm a bit surprised about that because I don't think I've ever had a hard time understanding you and I always love it when you participate in topics, I have learned a lot from you and I hope you don't shy away from stating your opinion on any topic in which you have an opinion. smile.gif

Boo&BugsMom replied: Unitarianism is the belief in the single personality of God, in contrast to the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one God). It is the philosophy upon which the modern Unitarian movement was based, and, according to its proponents, is the original form of Christianity. They didn't believe that Jesus was God himself, but they believed in the Christian principles, nonetheless. Hence, this country being founded on Christian principles.

cameragirl21 replied:
oh I agree, Jessica that we no longer call it Christmas or Easter break, the fact that it isn't any longer has been brought up as a point of contention by some here before which is why I mention it.
It is now winter and spring break here and I imagine everywhere else too and it was like that when I was in school too.
Btw, just fyi, you can't really misspell Hannukah because it's a Hebrew word and in English it's always phonetically translated so just about any spelling that makes sense is correct. happy.gif

luvmykids replied:
Darn it, I knew I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut rolling_smile.gif

cameragirl21 replied: Monica, I definitely think you should be allowed to say "Merry Christmas" but if a cashier at a register of a store who doesn't know me from Adam (or Eve in my case, lol) says it, she is bound to get it wrong a lot of the time, especially in Miami so I think they should all say "Happy Holidays" to be fair to all.
If I know you celebrate Christmas I would, of course, say "Merry Christmas" to you, I have nothing against saying it and tbh, I usually celebrate Christmas with my godson so it's not as if I have no concept of Christmas and the last 2 Christmases I celebrated with one of my ALS families so I'm hardly a stranger to this holiday.
I think, though, that if you don't know what I celebrate then it's not fair to assume it's Christmas and it's safest and fairest (for lack of a better term) to say "Happy Holidays".
I never thought about it as trying to take away your Christmas cheer, etc, that is an interesting point you bring up.
Ok, I look at this way then--if someone says "MC" to me then s/he should not be offended if I respond with "HH" and I promise not to be offended that s/he said "MC" to me.
This may sound bizarre but I honestly think that if different cultures, beliefs, etc got together and had these sorts of conversations more then there'd be a lot fewer problems and misunderstandings in the world.
Also--I agree that there is no such thing as equality and as I said before, as a minority I never expected fairness, I'm curious though, for those who do expect or desire equality, how they would define it, in other words, what would have to happen for them to think it's fair, that was the point of this question in the first place.

gr33n3y3z replied:
I think so also

And I agree race,religion dont belong here and I would have never read this unless someone bought this to my attension and which they did plus a few others to them also.

TheOaf66 replied:
IMHO, those people who scream the loudest about being treated unfairly or unequally are the ones that no matter what you do they will never be satisfied. They thrive on being the victim and if all of their problems were solved they would create more. ALL ethinicities and religions are treated unequally or unfairly in some way or another, it is the people that dwell on it that make it more of a problem then it is (they are usually not doing anything to correct it just complaining about it) I say this in general but as I said before, if there was less finger pointing and less bawling.gif about what someone has and you don't the problem would not be as big right now

moped replied:
Jen, I have to ask....why do you keep saying you are a minority? Because you are jewish? I am sure you aren't treated any differently? Just curious, because you say that quite frequently............I have never considered Jewish to be a minority. Am I a monority because i am 36 and pg?

cameragirl21 replied:
Jen, I'm going to back off of this topic because I see that it is upsetting people and that was NOT my intention when I asked the question. However, I'm happy to answer your question about what makes me a minority so if you'd like to discuss this further (or anyone else) feel free to pm me and I'm more than happy to explain and answer any and all of your questions.
Just for the record though, when I say I'm a minority I don't expect to be covered by affirmative action, other than as a woman of course. tongue.gif

moped replied:
Jennifer, when you start a topic with the sentence "let me tread lightly" you know you are going to start something or you wouldn't have typed that at all........

cameragirl21 replied:
actually, tbh, I am bewildered that this topic upset anyone. I said, "let me tread lightly" because I know it's a sensitive topic and I am approaching it with sensitivity and without malice, that is what I meant. I asked the question very strictly for the purpose of learning.
at any rate, as I mentioned, I am done with this topic on the public forum, if you have any further questions, please find me in private. smile.gif

PrairieMom replied:
I have only scanned all the other responses, so I don't really know what all has been said already, so if I am repeating someone else, or beating a dead horse please just ignore me. I am going all the way back to the original questions.

I personally don't feel reverse discrimination against myself or my family for our religious beliefs. although, we really aren't the "in-your-face" type of Christians. I don't feel that religious minorities have any more or less rights than I do.

As for the holidays, they are so commercialized anymore that they really aren't about the religious meaning anymore anyway. IMO, I think that those "minorities" that don't celebrate a particular holiday should just enjoy the day off, (hopefully with pay
wink.gif ) and celebrate or don't in their own way.
To me, being a Christian isn't about the benefits I receive by getting time off work, or gifts at Christmas time, It is about the gift i will receive when my time here on earth is over.

As for Christian history being taught in school, I don't really see it as a religious issue. This land was settled, and this country was founded by Christians. I could be wrong, but isn't most of the Jewish history in the middle east, and Europe? When we learn about American history in school, its gonna be about Christians, because they are the ones that made American History.

If I could have my way I would get have summer, winter and spring break, where people can celebrate what ever holidays they want, and it would be nice if people could just take someone wishing them a "merry Christmas, or Happy Hanukkah" as nothing more than a friendly gesture.

TheOaf66 replied: way to jump in Tara clapsmiley.gif clapsmiley.gif clapsmiley.gif hug.gif

Calimama replied:
I find it ironic that was your opening statement and then you say a couple times that you had no idea this would upset anyone. I've learned when the topic starts with that line.. to not answer the question.. interesting debate though. hug.gif

holley79 replied: I haven't read all the post. Idk, maybe I should since this could have already been said.

Ok I know this is going to be totally stupid on my part. rolleyes.gif There aren't near as many religious holidays as there are "Federal" holidays out there. Christmas isn't about Christ anymore it's about profit. Thanksgiving has no religious meaning to me at all. It's a day of gathering and good food. I get MLK, Labor Day and Memorial Day off. There are others but can't think of them right now.

Working at the sheriff's office as has my mom my entire life there were a whole heck of a lot of holidays I didn't get off. My DH on the other hand gets the day off if the president sneezes wrong. People can throw the Religious holiday card out there and they are more then welcome to take that day off.

cameragirl21 replied:
actually, I said that about my radar because I knew going in that this topic had the potential to get ugly and get out of hand, hence my saying, "let me tread lightly" hoping that it wouldn't...and it didn't. smile.gif
Which is why I'm rather surprised that it upset anyone. I'm coming to realize that for some people here, everything I say is considered evil, even if it's as simple as, "good morning" or something mundane like that...I've got that scarlet letter on my forehead, lol.
That said, I take all comments here with a grain of salt and so should everyone else, imo.

coasterqueen replied: For those who do not think this topic should be here or do not wish to debate it, please disregard this post and go on to another one. There is nothing wrong with having a debate like this as long as it is a friendly one.

cameragirl21 replied:
clapsmiley.gif My sentiments exactly. hug.gif
Karen, they should clone you and pass you around, you are one in six billion. wink.gif love2.gif

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I was just about to say that Karen. Good thing I decided to read all the posts to make sure.... tongue.gif

holley79 replied:
Not to be a butt or anything but what if the majority feels that the topics have gotten out of hand over the minority. What if the majority feel that there are a lot of inapproriate activity taken place that takes away from the Parenting part of this board. I mean I know it's general discussion and all but isn't there somethings that have a place and time?

I'm just curious is all. I know I can't be the only one that feels this way.

lesliesmom replied: I agree with what a lot of you are saying. Holidays, even those with religious undertones, have been taken over and made into a commercial event. Most companies in my area follow the Federal holiday schedule. If a bank or the Court is closed, then they are closed. Be it Christmas, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day or MLK Day. I do remember a time when things were closed on Sundays as well. Just like holidays, commercialism took over and companies decided they were missing out on a buck and slowly started opening for business on Sundays.. first, for a few hours and now you don't know the difference between a weekday and weekend because most of the stores are open the same hours all week. The same thing can now be said for these holidays... to a lot of people, it's just a day off.. the real meaning is missing (be it the birth of Christ, the remembrance of our veterans, etc).

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You're not. wavey.gif

MommyToAshley replied: In your original question, I think you may be referring to my post in the thread about the Pledge. If so, then you completely missed my original point. I simply meant that the efforts to be politically correct can be taken too far.

The post was about the fact that many schools don't teach The Pledge of Allegence any more. I find it sad that many of our children are denied a bit of history because it has the word God in it. What's next? --Not teach kids anything in The Constitution... it has the word God woven throughout the document.

As for your comments about Holidays and observance of religious days in the work place, you are mistaken. I worked in a HR and management position and I can tell you that it is illegal to force someone dress a certain way if it violates their religious beliefs. It is illegal to force someone to work on a day that they require off for religious observance... this includes Sundays.

I have made reference to this before, but I think it is sad that a church is denied the right to have a float in the city's 4th of July parade because of the issue of separation of Church and State, but yet the KKK is allowed to march on those same streets in order to protect their rights to freedom of speech. Even if you don't believe in God, something is morally wrong there.

As for the religious holidays, I am not offended if someone says Happy Hanukkah to me. I see it as a kind gesture. And, if I say Merry Christmas, then I hope it is received likewise. But, what I find sad is that employees are forbidden from saying either as it might be offensive. A store owner is told he must take down a nativity scene, yet the commercial symbol of Santa is ok. I would not find any other religious symbol offensive, and therefore I find it hard to understand why Christian symbolism is so offensive. I don't think we are truly the melting pot that we claim to be if we are so easily offended by others cultures and religious beliefs.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
horray.gif
WONDERFULLY said DeeDee!!!!

Some people want tolerance, but don't have tolerance for things they don't agree with.

holley79 replied: Very well said Dee Dee hug.gif

Mommy2BAK replied:
That was very educational for me DeeDee, thank you for that post. I had no clue about the 4th of July parade thing, and your point about the Constitution was great!

Sometimes I get so confused as to why someone would start such a topic that has the ability to cause so much drama or contraversy, but in all honesty... those end up being the topics that I learn so much from.

Jackie012007 replied:
WELL said Holley, and you are definitely not alone. I don't mind talking about topics outside of the parenting aspect, but it just doesn't seem like an appropriate venue for religious debate and debate about minorities and what have you - there are specific boards out there designed for that type of chat and Jennifer, maybe you need to go there with that type of subject matter.

And I'm sorry, if your radar is going off, I think you best bet is to not post. A lot of people around here tiptoe around, afraid of not being PC and hurting feelings, but I feel it finally needs to be said.

Jennifer, I think you like to stir up stuff a lot on here - and I think it's very unfair how you continue to get to say whatever you want but the minute one of us is offended and posts back, we are chastized for it. You want to talk about inequality, THERE it is. This is, from my understanding, a PARENTING board. I come here to ask questions because I'm young and I don't know who else to ask about my baby or me, and I really value the advice I have been given. But nothing irks me more or makes me more uncomfortable than coming on here and seeing a 5 page long thread that Jennifer has started that ends up having to be locked or leaves a majority with hurt feelings. It's just getting ridiculous and becoming more and more common...

No one else wants to come out and say it, but I see a lot of people complaining about it in the background but are too afraid to say it and that is just ridiculous. So I'll say it - warn me, ban me, whatever. I'm just sick of coming on here and seeing stuff like that - it defeats the whole purpose of the board, it's a HUGE downer and I bet it turns off a lot of potential members.

Mommy2BAK replied: Jackie, I am so sorry you feel that way. But I can completely understand why. And, I know that you're not the only one. hug.gif

BAC'sMom replied: bigthink.gif bigtup.gif clapsmiley.gif

cameragirl21 replied:
Actually, Dee Dee, just for the record, my original post was not about what you said at all but rather what a few people said in my thread about magnet schools that teach Hebrew, Arabic, etc and thereby cater to certain religious minorities in the US.
I completely agree with you about the Pledge and just for a bit of trivia--the original pledge did not contain the words "under God" they were added during the cold war era as a jab against the communists who are atheists. I personally want it to stay the way it is and feel that if you don't believe in God or don't want to say "under God" then don't say it, no one will force anyone to say it so there is no reason to force anyone not to say it.
I didn't ask this question to inflame at all but rather to understand because I don't understand what it feels like to be in your place and be in the majority technically but feel as if my beliefs are cast aside to be politically correct whereas I assume (and I know I shouldn't assume, lol) that you don't know what it is to be in my place and be in the minority and always feel like you are different from the others. For me it's hard to understand when the majority says that their beliefs are trampled on, etc, this is NOT to say I don't agree or think anyone is lying or whatever but rather I just don't know what it feels like to be in the majority, from my perspective, the majority always gets representation. So I asked this question to try to understand it from your perspective because I would like to learn and understand and considering how our world and schools and society are changing, I find it hard to see how this is NOT a parenting issue--what will some of you respond with when your kids ask questions like, "why doesn't Jennifer celebrate Christmas?" or "Why does Samira wear a scarf over her head?" or "why does Punjab (sorry couldn't come up with a better name) wear a (Sikh) turban?"
I think, and I say this as a very liberal minded person, that political correctness can and does go too far. I see no reason for a church not to have 4th of July floats or anything on their property, really, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
As for holidays, I agree that by law anyone can take their holidays, I merely stated that Christian holidays are given to everyone (except hospital staff, police, etc) so in light of that, and the fact that we are clearly a Christian majority nation, what would Christians want in order to feel that their beliefs are not trampled on and treated fairly?
Let me tell you, I work with all sorts of kids--Jewish kids, Christian kids, even some Pagan kids and I get asked these sorts of questions all the time because when I sit down with parents and kids to go over my portfolio and talk to them about the pics they want, many religious pics are shown--baptisms, communions, etc and these sorts of questions come up. I can't imagine these sorts of questions are never asked of parents at home. That said, I can't quite understand why this topic is so hot and/or bothersome to people. We are not a homogenous society and these differences are real and growing more everyday. What could be better than trying to understand each other's differences so that we can better prepare children to get along with people who don't think like them and don't believe what they believe.
I, for one, intend to send my kids to a Jewish school so they don't feel like a minority BUT I also want them to be aware that we live in a predominantly Christian world so they don't walk out of that Jewish school to find themselves shocked that this is not like living in Israel or something to that effect.

holley79 replied: There are a lot of people who feel this way as well Jackie. I have been a member of this board since before Annika was born. I guess I need to just learn to just answer certain people's posts and stay away from others. It's sad when you have to do this. dry.gif

MommyToAshley replied:
Holly, I can completely understand why you feel this way. Moderating the board is harder than I ever thought. It's difficult to determine where to draw the line... I want to allow everyone the chance to express their opinions or ask questions but on the other hand I want to keep the peace. So, where do you draw the line between keeping the peace but not censorship? It's not easy, so therefore we allow a variety of topics but try to moderate the board not to allow personal attacks. But, even that gets messy... as evident by this very thread. Therefore, I try to leave it up to the individual person to decide whether or not they want to indulge in a particular topic.

I am glad you brought this up as it is evident that others feel the same. I hope I have shed some light on how we try to moderate and that we can get back on track from here.

moped replied: Dee I am very grateful for you and your board and i am sure your job is NOT easy!!!!!!!

hug.gif

holley79 replied:
I think it's awesome that you want to send your children to a Jewish school. No different then someone sending their own children to a religious school of their choosing. What I think is sad that you say you don't want them to feel like a minority. I think as long as you don't always throw out the minority card then they will be comfortable in their religion and own skin instead of their parents constantly placing them in the minority catergory.

holley79 replied:
Dee Dee I have loved being a part of this board since joining. I got some of the greatest advice, able to vent, able to ask questions, laugh and cry with many here. I know your job can not be easy. I hope to be able to remain a member of this board but there are times when it's exhausting and things get lost.

(I don't think I made a lick of sense here. emlaugh.gif )

hug.gif

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
ETA: oh my.

this IS a general discussions board. And for all who get offended at these types of posts, then LEAVE THEM ALONE. It seems simple. rolleyes.gif After all... how many posts do some of us, on a daily basis, post things that aren't parent or child related at all?

For crying out loud. If you know it's a post that's likely going to tick you off, do'nt even click. Geez. rolleyes.gif mad.gif

Crystalina replied:
thumb.gif I totally agree! If someone says Happy Hanukkah to me I just translate (in my Crystal head) to Merry Christmas and I will say Happy Hanukkah right back. Just because I don't observe it doesn't mean I cannot wish well for those who do. smile.gif

Mommy2BAK replied:
EXACTLY, why in the world would you get offended?? Whoever says it is probably just trying to be kind. smile.gif

holley79 replied:
I am the same way. There is no reason to tell someone you don't believe the same as them and make a fuss about it. blush.gif

Crystalina replied:
Exactly! If someone is going to be nice enough to say Happy Hanukkah I'm sure they did not approach me to start an argument or a debate so why in the heck would I? And anyone IRL who would do that to someone shouldn't be out in public mingling with society anyway. tongue.gif

holley79 replied:
I understand this Rockie. The part I don't understand if when everyone gets quoted and it tossed back in their face. No matter what anyone says and they aren't agreed with by one person then it is not right and just continues. No one can have a "healthy" debate here everything has to be so complicated and way past controversial.

JMO though.

Jackie012007 replied:
I definitely respect ALL you mods - I can't even imagine trying to keep up witht he board and making the decisions you have to. But I have to say - I draw the line when it becomes a reapeat problem from the same repeat offender. That is when I had to ask myself, what are her true intentions.

I'm sorry, but I am sick to death of seeing her play the ganged-up on victim after she just finished offednding half the board and picking individual fights with those who responded, under the guise of defending her position. I really try to stay out of it but I feel I can't sit by and watch her stir the pot and thrive. It's just NOT right. It's not what this board is meant for and it's downright juvenile.

coasterqueen replied:
This is what I've been trying to say.

And I'm going to say this in the interest that even as a mod I might get in trouble for this but here it goes..I think this needs to be said as well. Sure there are many here that don't like how Jennifer crosses the lines with her topics, etc BUT can I ask why when some of you do not like what she posts you reply back to her with rather not-so-nice replies? Why not leave the post and ignore her? We are all adults. If you don't like a conversation LEAVE IT ALONE instead of replying back to her and egging on the debate? I'm confused on why every time she posts a topic there are many on here that quickly go to her posts, read what she says and posts negative things right back to her because you don't like what she says. Why????? Because you don't like that she's posting debatable topics? If you don't like it don't read or reply.

Granted I think stating in the title that it's a debatable topic is a good thing to do, but I can also GUARANTY the majority who don't like what Jennifer posts is going to read it and reply some sort of remark, including the sarcasm that is usually posted to her posts. How does that many anyone better?

dunno.gif dunno.gif Just food for thought.

tammyhopkins replied: I don't post much unless i feel my 2 cents matters or is going to help someone when asking a question about parenting.

But i have to say 99% of the time i avoid these topics as they have nothing to do with why i joined this group. It is not going to help me raise my child any better.

cameragirl21 replied:
Holley...in all fairness, you say this because you have no idea what it feels like to be the only Jewish kid in a public school classroom...that is what I was. And when I say minority, I don't mean it in the affirmative action sense, I am referring to NOT being in the Christian majority, that's all. I am NOT trying to play the trampled on, downtrodden minority card at all.
And I'm sorry if you or anyone don't like the topics/threads I start but the beauty is that no one has to respond to them. There are plenty of threads I choose not to respond to. The beauty of freedom is that you are free to say or not to say anything or to read or not to read anything. I assure you I am not here to upset you or anyone. My opinion is different than yours and the topics I consider relevent are obviously not the same ones you consider relevent, parent or not. I have given plenty of parents the link to this board and they've come back to me and said they won't fit in and don't want to be a part of it. Obviously I don't really fit in here either, and it has nothing to do with being a parent or not and everyting to do with again, the issues I find relevent. However, when I do take a few days off to travel or get some work done I get a box full of PM's asking me where I am and when I'm coming back so in all fairness, I'm not here against the will of the entire board.
I think if any of my topics make anyone uncomfortable they should just skip them and move on to or start a more amiable topic. As long there are no personal attacks there should really be no problem.
I don't expect to be liked by everyone, none of us should. Diversity is the spice of life.
Anyway, I don't have much more to say on the subject, I would have left it alone long ago but some tried to engage me and I opted to be engaged because I've come to realize that here if you don't respond it rouses suspicion so it's better to answer. Some of you have pm'd me your thoughts because you were not comfortable expressing them here and I appreciate that and welcome more if any of you have anything else to add.
For me understanding where others are coming from is crucial; I can accept that not everyone feels this way and hope that others can accept that I do feel this way.

Jackie012007 replied:
That's a very idealistic thing to say - post a thread that says "Don't Look Here" and see how many views you get. It's a simple fact that no matter how much you don't want to look at the thread, you will and it may anger you so much that you feel compelled to respond - and this is what happens. And I think you are not seeing the fact that a majority of the time, things like this happen after jennifer's threads. I have never seen one person cause so much controversy on a board - it's quite sickening.

This goes to everyone, not just you: I understand if you like Jennifer and think she has great things to say, that's fine. But I'm willing to bet the majority of us are tired of it and tired of having to ignore posts and scared to say something that a mod may not like and may get us in trouble. I understand the talk of other topics, whatever that doesn't bother me. What bothers me entirely is when every word that comes out of your mouth ends up being controversial, feelings get hurt, people feel ganged up on, etc. Can't we have ONE place where we don't have to come in with our defenses up, worried about getting into a fight? I know I'm not the only one who feels like this and it's a sad shame that people on here are so afraid to be banned or be PMed and chastized by a mod when this is an issue that REALLY AND TRULY worries and bothers a lot of great members on here.

Maybe instead of dancing around the issue like has been done for months, we should get together and try to find a way to work it out.

BAC'sMom replied:

Sorry Jackie I have to correct you THIS has been going on for a year now huh.gif


You know it's a shame PC used to stand for Parenting Club, now it seems to be just Political Correctness!!

holley79 replied:
Actually to be totally honest I do know what it is like to be a minority. When we first moved to this area the school I attended was majority African American and I was made to feel the outcast. I learned very quickly how to fit in. I knew that I was accepted when I proved that I was not going to be a problem to anyone. I have also been the minority in another school where my religious beliefs were not the same as others. I was a Christian and was told that my God did not exsist.

I don't have a problem with you being here Jennifer. The problem that I have if the stirring up. The "This may be controversial". It is as if you are looking to cause problems. You quote people and you throw it up in other's face that they do not know what they are talking about because your opinion does not match theirs. You also call people out and personally attack them. This has happened quite often in the past. You also think that other people are not as educated as you are because of the region of the county in which they live. If you are going to start a "controversial" topic and have to "tread lightly" then you can expect that the opinions that are going to be stated are not going to be your own. If you can not accept that and accept other people's opinions without trying to make them feel inferrior to you then maybe you need not to do it. I have been a member of this board for a long time and some of the topics you have started have made a lot of people feel uncomfortable. You also start a lot of topics then it gets heated then locked. You can't just let things go as they are. OPINIONS! This is what they are. If you don't agree with it doesn't give you the right to try and "mold" someone to your way of thinking. We are all set in our own way, religious beliefs, moral standards, child rearing. No one is going to be 100% in agreeance with one another! Why you can't just let people state opinions and move on is beyond me.

If I have to be banned suspended timedout or whatever that is the choice of the mods/ admin. I have said my peice and I am DONE!!!

Jackie012007 replied:
clapsmiley.gif my sentiments EXACTLY. Thank you Holley, and I think it would be ridiculous if you were suspended or banned for saying that.

PrairieMom replied:
I'm just jumping in here, I know I'm kinda butting in, but I just gotta say, it takes 2 people to fight. If you don't like the topic being discussed, (or the person discussing it) then just leave it be. There are lots of other things being talked about on these boards right now. This is just one of many threads.

lovemy2 replied: I said it earlier in this thread and I will say it again


wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif

This is absolutely NUTS.......

luvbug00 replied: You know i really understand that there are so many views on this topic and i am interested to hear them all.

But i honestly find it kinda insulting, Jennifer, that it sems you think you have been the only person with a minority experience in your life ( regardless of wither the minority was in religon or not) and hence others know nothing of how it felt to be a minority. It's a constant in many of your debates and such. So i am going to venture out and ask you to keep in mind that we all have been in a situation where noone else has experienced/believed or understood somthing in our lives. that's all i really have to say.


debate on wink.gif

cameragirl21 replied:
I'm not really sure I should even respond to this, Holley but I will simply say this--most of the time, most of what I say is grossly misunderstood and I think that is largely where the problem lies. That is not to say that I think I never have any blame or that I am completely without fault at all. I have been pm'd by certain members here telling me to remember my audience and I think that is largely where the problem lies too. It's not a matter of my being superior to anyone here or anyone else being inferior...if I thought that I'd not be here. I have learned a lot from people here and that is what keeps me coming back day after day. Otherwise I'd have left long ago. For me life is all about learning and one of the things I love about this board is that I can speak to people I'd normally never run into IRL here in Miami.
And while I do greatly value education it is not imo the be all and end all of a person's intelligence, worth, deserved respect, etc. Bill Gates has no college degree while my good friend Pam is a doctor and I'm willing to bet he gets and deserves more respect than she does even though has nearly a decade of education on him.
I am not here to stir up trouble, I'm here to learn and like I said, I have the opportunity to learn from a very diverse group here that I'd never find IRL.
And there is no reason imo that you should be suspended or banned, I'm not upset by what you said.
Anywho, I want to take this opportunity to point something out that happens quite often--I started this thead about YOU, not you, Holley, but you as a group in the US and YOU quickly turned it around to be about ME, Jennifer, which is not what I was looking for or seeking...I have plenty of opportunities to talk about me IRL. This, I think is a big part of where the issue lies--stick to the issue and if you have an opinion, state it and if you don't or prefer not to state it, then don't but why turn it into a discussion about me? If you do that then why are you upset that this is how it always ends up?

Jackie012007 replied:
I understand that but I'm not backing off because that is my point - this happens all the time and everyone complains about it privately but publicly just dances around it and makes it go away until the next flare up. I feel the problem needs to be addressed and something needs to be done before PC loses some great members who can't take it anymore.

I don't know if I'm coming off as a bad guy here or what - I'm just saying what I feel and I know a LOT of other members are too scared to admit to feeling. I'm not picking a fight, I'm trying to get those others who are upset by this, motivated to come out and say so without fear of being banned or suspended or what have you.

cameragirl21 replied:
that's fair, Nadia, and you are right, there are plenty of other minorities and I appreciate your pointing that out.
I btw, did not mean to imply that I am the only minority here, I'm asking about a particular issue of a majority of which I am not a part, that's all.

Jackie012007 replied: bigthink.gif you just don't get it, jennifer.

In stead of sitting back and reading what people write, you jump into this defensive position and THAT is how this gets started - not us making it personal.

You have an air of superiority in your tone and you come off as very "above" us. You make it a personal thing when you turn back on every person that responds, with a very defensive tone if they don't agree with what you are saying - meanwhile you make a big to-do about those who agree.

I know it is hard to convey tone on a message board, but I'm trying to tell you this so that you better understand... this is how I am many others feel. Try actually READING the responses, don't feel you need to immediately jump on the person who doesn't agree. Like Holley (I think) sauid, you can't force them to take your side. But you try very hard to.


Sorry if it doesn't make sense, there is a screaming child in my ear.

PrairieMom replied:
I guess the difference is that I don't see this as a problem, I see it as a learning opportunity on a few different levels. I just kinda skip over all the fist fighting and finger pointing and try to stick to the original topic. um... except for this very moment... laugh.gif I'm done now. wink.gif

Boo&BugsMom replied: It's sad that we have allowed one person to cause such chaos. Doesn't it say something when one person is making so many people upset ALL the time??? It's not the topics that people are upset by, it's the fact that they ALL come from ONE person!!! And that person has to constantly go ON AND ON about the same things over and over. wacko.gif

moped replied:
Agreed - well said Jennie!

Jackie012007 replied:
hug.gif thank you thank you thank you!!! hug.gif I was starting to feel like I was the bad guy or something, thank you for that. That was my entire point and I'm sorry if it came across otherwise!

cameragirl21 replied:
That's perfectly fair, Holley, consider it mutual. smile.gif
ETA--I encourage certain others here to follow Holley's lead. I will always make it mutual, in fact, most of you who have a problem with me should note that I rarely (if ever) respond to your posts as it is, unless you post to me first. I think this will make all of us a lot happier.

lovemy2 replied:
I am with you girls - just had a really really hard time figuring out how to say it - its not the controversial topic issue IMO - I love a good debate - especially something I can LEARN from - its the way Jennifer goes about it - I personally don't usually read her threads and if I do I rarely respond until they get to this point only because I can't waste my time being attacked like that - I mean - I get it I am not that smart but when someone throws it in my face I tend to get a little mean and that is a personality trait I usually reserve for DH wink.gif

luvmykids replied:
I think Dee Dee's point was that the parade was NOT on the church's property wink.gif In a town parade on a public street, a church was not allowed to have a float because it violates separation of church and state. In most towns where that kind of thing happens, in prior years the church having a float wasn't a problem...it's not until someone gets offended and makes a stink that it becomes an issue. So I'll turn it around, if it's offensive to folks, can't they just not look?

Thankfully, I live in a small town that is open minded enough to allow a church to participate in a public parade on a public street....my kids attend a public school that allows a Bible Club to meet on their premesis. I'm sure it won't last long though, because although the Club is not a requirement of their kids, and although the Club doesn't meet during school hours, they will be offended enough to raise cane about separation of church and state, and the Club will have to find somewhere else to meet. Even if I wasn't a Christian, that would bother me because I don't care what kinds of groups use the school as a facility after hours....if I'm not required to be there, it's not costing me any more money, and I can just opt out, whats the harm? If I can just choose "not to look" so to speak, why can't others?

cameragirl21 replied:
oh, sorry if I misunderstood what Dee Dee was saying about the 4th of July float. I didn't hear about that, I guess, not sure what exactly it's about but I see no reason not to allow a church a 4th of July float on their property.
As to the bible studies, Idk about that, I agree that if no one is using the property after hours then I suppose it's not a problem, I know other groups use public schools for various non school related things. I don't really know enough about that topic to have a concrete opinion about it.
As I said earlier, I think there is definitely a point at which the politically correct movement takes things to the other extreme. Of course I am a left winger but I always say that if you're too far to the left you start to sound like a commie and tbh, some of the things I've mentioned (that I wish were the law here in the US) to my ga, who grew up in Moscow has led her to say that I think like a commie.
Ouch, that one hurt. tongue.gif

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I would also think someone would use their common sense and maturity and stop making people upset when they know it will upset people. wink.gif I know if I kept upsetting people, I'd stop what I was doing.

MyLuvBugs replied:
I couldn't have said it better myself Jackie. Good Job!

Jennifer, it's your high and mighty, better than thou art attitude that comes across in the posts and makes people upset. You offend in your tone b/c you don't seem to fully read and understand the other persons posts and you don't seem to think before you speak.
If your "radar" is telling you that something might be upsetting to others, then that should be a HUGE clue that it might not be an appropriate thing to ask or say. EXAMPLE: you wouldn't walk up to some stranger on the street, tell them they are fat and then ask to see their stretch marks....it's inappropriate b/c it will upset that person. And your "radar" should inform you of that! Yet you continue EVERYDAY for the past year, to come on here and make post after post of some of the most controversial, upsetting and offending topics. Then you stand back and say "DOH! I didn't realize it would be this upsetting to everyone."
OH PLEASE! No one is that Niave! You know exactly what you're doing, so stop playing the innocent one. You like the drama you create. However, most of us have enough of drama in our own lives, and don't need it on here. JMHO rolleyes.gif

TheOaf66 replied: I was wondering when this will get locked as they seem to quite often

holley79 replied:
It's just a matter of time Troy. wacko.gif

coasterqueen replied: I am going to close this topic as it isn't going anywhere.

It's a shame we can't discuss the topic that was originally posted as it's a very intriguing topic.

Unfortunately we all can't play nice so I guess we can't play at all.


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