what is your issue? - with regard to elections?

cameragirl21 wrote: just curious as i see people lamenting the election results...what is everyone's main issue when deciding whom to vote for and which party to vote for?
i'm sure you can all tell that i'm a proud lefty...in more ways than one as i am left handed although i was switched as a baby but that's another story.
anyway, so i tend to vote toward the left, the only exception being middle east issues where i lean pretty far to the right.
however, in light of my recent work with the terminally ill, my big issue has become stem cell research, of which i am a tireless advocate.
i'm glad to see the dems won the House and the Senate still hangs in the balance but in all fairness, the Repub Congress passed the stem cell bill and our brilliant president vetoed it so from where i'm standing, i gotta wonder, what's the point?
what are other people's issues when it comes to voting?

coasterqueen replied: I didn't know you were a lefty from a family full of lefties.

I'm not sure you want to know my party affiliation.

cameragirl21 replied: yes, i am left handed but i write with my right because my mom and grandma switched me when i was a baby...there are some serious superstitions in Russia about girls who are left handed.
doesn't change the fact that i'm biologically left handed though.
do tell about your party affiliation, i have a feeling we'll be at serious odds but as long as you're not an animal killer i'm sure we can still be friends.

coasterqueen replied:
Yes, I believe we are serious odds. I'm not exactly an animal killer, not an inhumane one. I grew up in a family who hunted a lot for our food, but they don't do that anymore. I accidently kill critters often since I live out in the country and they don't understand when to cross the road.

cameragirl21 replied: Accidentally doesn't really count as much, Karen because while i would hate to run over any animal, if it's an accident it's not the same as doing it on purpose.
so tell me why you're so upset about this election, i never took you for an extreme righty but even so you'll still be my friend.

gr33n3y3z replied: it could have been worse LOL
But I'm not a very happy with the whole out come

my2monkeyboys replied: Though I'm not happy with it, the Republicans in office can only blame themselves... they have not upheld their end of the deal very well.
I have a few big issues that concern me. Govt. size, taxes, abortion and the middle east are the top few. I think the govt. should always be smaller, never larger; I believe the FairTax should be passed and income tax done away with; I think abortion is wrong in any way; and I think the islamic zealots are out to kill us all and we are one of the very few countries that will/can fight and win.
As for most other issues I can compromise and/or accept that not everything will be just as I want it.
If the dems in control are smart they will "play nicely" and set themselves up for a dem presidency in the next term. Of course, I'm hoping they'll blow it and the presidency will be held by a republican or libertarian.
Sorry so long...

Crystalina replied: Well Jennifer, you are a braver women then I to start this thread! I wanted to but didn't dare. Let's just say that over the years I've been quite discouraged thinking why do I even bother because it never goes the way I vote but yesterday made it all worth it. Everything turned out the way I wanted (except for one Judge ) but other then that I'm quite satisfied and glad I left to go out in the yucky day to make a differance.

cameragirl21 replied:
we'll soon see, Crystal, if i was brave or just stupid.

My2Beauties replied:
Oy - I think republicans are the ones that need to start playing nice...that's what got more democrats in congress this time around! You are right, they have set themselves up....with their #1 idiot (yours truly George W Bush) leading the way! OK that's it, I'm done now, I've already made another George comment in another thread - you guys can beat me now

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I am unhappy that less money will be spent now on homeland security and more will be spent on welfare programs. I am concerned for my rights as a parent to homeschool being protected on a national level. I am concerned about everything from gun-control to taxes to abortion to national security....We stayed pretty much the same down here but on a much broader spectrum (the national Congress and possibily the Senate) I can see the possible rough days ahead for the 'conservative right'

Tiggersmom2 replied:
I definitely like you!!!! I would love to see a libertarian president but I don't think we will see a third party emerge anytime soon. I was disappointed in the election in general but happy with my local and state elections. The GOP had a big win in GA last night.

coasterqueen replied:
Ok, I was going to respond more, but you played the name calling card so I'll stay out of this "potential" heated topic if I was to respond.

cameragirl21 replied:
Karen, don't be silly, if you have an opinion feel free to state it. we don't all have to agree.
so far it's been civil and there's no reason for you not join in the convo.
i hate anything where anyone feels left out or afraid to speak up.

CantWait replied: We just got finished with a provincial election and my main issue was the creation/wages of jobs in New Brunswick. I didn't get to vote this time because we've only lived here a couple months, and the law here is 6 months. I think it sucks because in a small way I'm serving my country by following my dh who is with the armed forces.

Nationally my issue is our tropps overseas, funding for the military, and health care.

jcc64 replied: Karen will describe herself as a die hard Republican, but she'll surprise you with some of her views, Jennifer. It's what I love about her politics- she's not dogmatic, and she thinks for herself as opposed to parroting the party line. I can appreciate that from anyone- it's so rare these days.

I don't think I'm quite as far over to the left as you are Jennifer, but for the most part, I would be described as a liberal. I believe in social justice, an obligation to recognize and/or care for our brothers and sisters who are in pain or struggling, a SERIOUS commitment to childrens' issues (not just the usual rhetoric), and an acknowledment that we are ruining the planet for our children. Farther down the list are an equitable tax system that doesn't favor the rich, a well funded education system (particularly access to higher education), and a foreign policy that doesn't assume we are the center of the universe.

My2Beauties replied:
What name calling, you mean George Bush being an idiot...I doubt he'll be on pc.com anytime soon so I didn't see that as "name calling" since I didn't say it about anyone on this board, I mean a million people called Britney Spars a hussie and stupid practically in the other post and it wasn't considered name calling. By all means Karen, post away. I was actually joking and trying to make light of an otherwise, potential heated topic myself...sorry if I offended you

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I almost always vote republican Karen, so please, feel free to share. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

I personally don't feel the need to comment on anything personally, only because I am not a very political person and I usually look for moral views (abortion, family values, etc.). However, I am not sure how many morals are even present in politics .

MyLuvBugs replied: The only beef I have with this election or any other election is the mud slinging I get so sick and tired of hearing about all the crap people have done. I'd much rather hear about the differences they want to make and the good they think they'll do if they get elected. KWIM? But I'm a liberal and I'm not registered to vote, so what can I say. Just expressing an opinion I guess.

luvbug00 replied: to be honest I'm not too perticular, I just want gay marriage to be legal and Bush who i find just plain not fit to rule a country, ( which is my opinion that i have a right to, I'm not asking anyone to agree) to be gone and soon.

Crystalina replied:
Ohh, don't feel so bad. Bush is called an idiot in my house pretty regularly. Not towards him as a person (I don't know him) but for his position and what he stands for (ie, he puts himself out there being our Pres. so if you have to vent of course it's going to be towards him ).

jcc64 replied:


Right on. I think the two are mutually exclusive, with rare exceptions.

coasterqueen replied: LeaAnn,

My only opinion on the name calling of George Bush, and I know he'd never come to pc, was just that it could potentially start a heated debate...at least for me it could. But I will refrain from saying what I want to say on that subject.


Ahem, to the OP

I am Republican and proud of it. I am pro-life, pro-war when needed and I do believe it's needed, I believe that we should minimize welfare and other social programs - that we earn what we receive; it's not "owed" to us. I believe in small government. I believe in privatizing social security. I could go on and on.

I have an excellent funny little article on "Why I Want To Be A Republican" I'd love to share with you, but Dems might get a bit upset, so I won't.

Did I answer your questions Jennifer?

Jeanne- thanks for the lovely comments

TheOaf66 replied:
could not have said it better myself...

Could you pm me that republican article thanks

cameragirl21 replied: so, Karen, you are pro life in any all circumstances? I personally feel this should remain a private matter. plus, i think this would also be taking rights away from women. JMO
so then you are against stem cell research? this could save many lives.

coasterqueen replied:
I won't go into further matters on pro-life as it is a personal belief. As far as stem-cell research....I have my issues with that. It's a grey area that I'm still soul searching on but there are many concerns I have on it that would lead me to answer no.

msoulz replied: Any Michiganders out there will understand when I say my issue this time was the DOVES!! Seriously, what a waste of my pen stroke.

I don't subsribe to any particular party but try to get a feel for the person by observing debates and public appearances, or for his/her record if he/she is an incumbent. It's not terribly logical or scientific on my part but it works for me.

The campaign adds can't be relied upon because the opposing side often picks an issue to exploit when there are many other issues surrounding that contribute to whatever is going on. For example, there was an ad about a congressman using tax dollars to call an adult chat line. That was true, someone in his office did call that line one time. However, it was a one minute call (the minimum) and the next phone number called was the same 7 digits with a different area code, a legitimate call. So it is easy to conclude that someone placed that call accidentally, hung up, then made the correct call. No one told any lies but it certainly was misleading.

I am SO glad we don't have to live through those ads any more.

My2Beauties replied:
I understand where youa re coming from..I didn't think it would offend since you George W isn't a frequent visitor to pc and well I jsut figured everyone knows my views on the man. It's just my opinion of him, I love ya all the same and I KNOW honey (believe me I know) that you are a die-hard Republican and me a pretty much for the most part Die-Hard Democrat so I can always agree to disagree with you, no hurt feelings, didn't mean to offend! No one can change my mind but I'll respect your opinion about him and not call him anymore names!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I'm just happy those stupid automated phone calls will stop! UGH! Anyone else get those?

cameragirl21 replied:
no, you're not against it or no you don't like it?
anyway, we don't have to agree, i think it's great that we can see things differently and still be friendly.

msoulz replied:
OMG, we seemed to avoid those THANK GOODNESS!! But I did have several visits to my home by local candidates. And one gentleman who gave me a list of all of the Republicans running.

coasterqueen replied:
I'm still undecided honestly. I see the potential dangers and wonder if they outweigh the benefits.

Oh and I never answered really what bothered me about the elections last night in my state and that is Illinois is FULL of dirty politics, republican or democrat all the same, and we already have had past dirty governors go to jail, etc. The one we currently got isn't any better and people have their blinders on and vote for him. We'll all live to regret it if he ever gets to the presidency.


To LeaAnn,

No offense taken

Maddie&EthansMom replied:


I am right beside Karen on this one. And Karen if you could find a way to share that article with me, I'd love to see it.

TLCDad replied: Just to let everyone know. These types of debates almost always never stay civil. So just a headed warning, I will allow the thread but the first instance I see it stray away from being civil is where it will get deleted.

You can not convert someone's political views, so don't even try.

Most of you know I am a moderate democrate so no need to go in to too many details why I am happy that the democrates took control. Though with that said, I am far from liberal because I am a Christian and absolutely do not agree or accept many of the far left liberal views. I am happy to see that most of the democrates who got elected are more moderate or even some what conservative.

coasterqueen replied:
Why did I think you were Republican?

Thanks for letting us play

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Dee Dee is a republican.

cameragirl21 replied: i'm also glad it's staying civil because i'm realizing that maybe this thread wasn't the smartest i've ever started but it looks like we can all play nicely here.
just wanted to say for the record that i'm not as far to the left as all of you seem to think.
socially, i'm very liberal but i'm more fiscally conservative.
i guess i'm best described as a left wing moderate.
also, if Rudy runs for president i will vote for him for sure, it will of course be my first time voting republican....

coasterqueen replied:
Ah ha. I thought one of them was. Wow, you must have some interesting convos you two.

When I was growing up political party views were not brought up. My parents viewed it as a private personal matter and they never discussed their views with us or each other. I'm still not sure where they stand on matters. Since Ryan and I share the same views, sometimes one of us is a little bit more passionate than the other, nonetheless it gets talked about a lot in our house so the girls will obviously grow up knowing our stances.

Um, well not sure why I shared that info. I guess I'm wondering (in my head) if other families were like that growing up and still are now...but that's another thread.

TLCDad replied:
Probably because I do agree with alot of Republican views, especial when it comes to Judeo-Christian & family values. My main issue with them is they tend to give more value to big business, especialy oil and the born into money person than they do to the hard working middleman or the disadvantaged.

mom2my2cuties replied:
Holy Cow - To have been a fly on thier wall last night


I am pretty much in the same boat as Karen and many others have said when it comes to politics. And about Stem Cell Research, I am diehard against it if it is Embryonic Stem Cells. There are many many other ways of harvesting viable stem cells for research - I have some information on that somewhere if anyone wants it. Just for me personally - Embryonic stem cell research seems to be leading into the selling of unwanted pregnancies or just women getting pregnant to sell the embryo for this purpose. And I am definately Pro-Life (except in extreme cases) so that is something that is definately a hot button issue for me with politians.

Also, Karen, my family was similar to yours. It was never really discussed while we were growing up. Andrew and I although are very open about our political views.

My2Beauties replied: That is why I say I'm somewhat of a Die Hard Democrat, everyone knows my stance on abortion by now and I do agree with some of the things Republicans do but just a little more liberal twist to it, if that makes sense. So I wouldn't say I'm die hard democrat because if a republican could sway me then I would vote for him, I would not just vote democrat out of spite or to prove a point, I listen to the views and for the most part I just agree more with the democrats, especially with regards to the way and I'm with TLC Dad it seems as if they are in the oil companies pockets and want more for big business instead of the average middle class family!

Edited because I wrote I was a die hard Republican instead of a Die Hard Democrat

coasterqueen replied: Ok, can you call me a do-do bird? I typed pro-life and I made a HUGE mistake. I really am pro-choice. That's one area I lean towards who knows where.

Sorry to all of you who agreed with what I said, because I'm sure you didn't agree with that one.

Sorry, I'm trying to type up election reports and discuss politics on here. And to be fair I'm going on 2 hours of sleep.

coasterqueen replied:
Let me ask you LeaAnn. Do you vote (whatever party you may vote for) for what helps you in life? Or do you vote based on what would be better for the whole?

I'm not asking for more than just curiosity. I know a few IRL who don't really know what their affiliation is and it's mainly because they vote for what's good for them so they go with whoever is running for that at the time. KWIM?

cameragirl21 replied:
Karen, i'm really glad we can agree on that one.
while i personally wouldn't have an abortion i am against any laws that tell me or anyone that i can't. that's all i'll say on the matter because i respect everyone's views and i really do not want to start a debate on abortion.
that's why i asked you about stem cell research, otherwise, i wouldn't have.

mom2my2cuties replied: One thing I am VERY disappointed about is that the democrats have openly stated that they are going to do away with some of the price cuts that President Bush set in place (and that expire 12/31) which are helpful to the majority of people. Not just big business and the wealthy.

coasterqueen replied:
Well I was "seeing" one thing as I was typing it, but typed another. Like I said, 2 hours of sleep last night. I'm not all here right now and hope to find some sleep tonight

I still have issues with stem cell research though.

cameragirl21 replied:
oh, i'm not trying to convince you, i just asked when you said you were pro life.
just so everyone knows, stem cell research does NOT require a steady supply of embryos...once a line is established it replicates and there is no need for additional embryonic tissue.
not trying to convince anyone, just sharing information as few people know that.

TLCDad replied:
Actually unless things have dastically changed, their plan is to completely drop the tax cut for the top 1% and not the middle class, in fact they will increase the tax cut for the middle class. Some people see that the democrates are against the tax cut when in fact they are absolutely not. They are just against giving a tax cut for the extremely wealthy which most of them will even tell you they do not need.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

mom2my2cuties replied:
My biggest issue with it is that even at the political rallies here, I recall a specific question posed about one in particular, and Ford Jr said that the big one that he wants and that the democrats want to see gone, is the Sales Tax thing. Where you can deduct your sales tax from your income tax return and not have to pay that tax again. That one saved our butts last year, and would have this year as well, without we would have owed close to $7000 in taxes.

That among other things he has said/done during his campaign had me tickled pink he didn't get elected.

ETA - Forgive me I may not be explaining that exactly - I am not a very political person, most things I could care less about except for the deep moral issues.

TLCDad replied: I should mention that although Dee Dee and I do have somewhat different political views we do agree on alot of things. She is just somewhat more conservative than I am when it comes to social issues. But when it comes to Judeo-Christian family values we are in total agreement.

Crystalina replied: I am pro choice. There are too many children waiting for parents in the country, too many children being abused and neglected because they were not wanted. For every kid that is saved there are far too many that aren't.

I also believe in family values (like the republicans). I think it would be great to live back in the 50's when moms stayed home because the economy was better, dads stayed in the family, dinner was always on the table and kids could play outside because there weren't that many bad guys....only in my version there would be the happily married gay couple living next door.

I also believe in stem cell research althoug, Tish, I didn't know there were other ways to harvest the cells. Maybe I should do more research.

TLCDad replied:
Hmmm. Yes if that is exactly what he said, then I would not be happy about it. But, it does make we wonder if he was saying that to lead up to a federal sales tax and to completely do away with income tax? I would definitely be for that.

cameragirl21 replied:
Crystal, i agree with you for the most part, about the gay married couple next door and the pro choice and the kids being outside without worrying that some freak is lurking around the corner.
with regard to stem cell research--there is also cord blood being used for stem cell harvesting but the stem cells are not as potent...the most potent are embryonic stem cells and in fact, researchers were recently able to restore vision to blind rats using embryonic stem cells so there is just so much potential with that research.
but cord blood is also used and also has good possibilities.

mom2my2cuties replied:
Adults have stem cells as well. And they have been using those for years to do the Stem Cell research. And actually use those in a lot of transplants that have worked wonderfully.


I have some links in a file on my desktop somewhere, I will send post them for you later on - probably after church since I have to get my tooshie in gear soon.


TLC Dad - I am not sure if he was leading up to anything else or not - I couldn't stand him from the getgo (or the other guy for that matter) because they were just horrible to each other here. I am in TN, one of the "watched" senate races. And while Bob Corker was no prize apparently, Harold Ford Jr certianly shot himself in the foot repeatedly in the last few weeks.

Crystalina replied: Thanks for the info Jennifer and Tish. I'm still a newbie to the stem cell topic so I should probably just keep my mouth shut.

One thing that I wanted to add though is that if Guliani ran for Pres. it would be very hard for me not to vote for him although I'm a Dem. He would have to be running against a saint for me not to vote.

mom2my2cuties replied:
I think he would make an AWESOME president!

jcc64 replied: Really, Tish, b/c he's pretty liberal on social issues.

mom2my2cuties replied: I haven't watched much of his politics. But I do believe he is in essence a "true leader." I definately vote the issues, but I also will vote for a person if they have proven themselves to be a true leader and puts thier own agenda aside (at least in part) to do what is best for others. And personally I think he did a fairly decent job in NYC from what I understand of it, being an outsider, maybe I don't see things as a New Yorker would, so take that how you will.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Karen, my parents never really discussed politics as I was growing up, either. Actually, it wasn't until I was out of the house that my dad and I had a discussion on the topic. He's VERY far left, btw. VERY liberal. My mother is conservative...that is why they never discussed politics I would imagine. I'm pretty conservative, but I'm not one to debate with anyone on politics. I don't know enough about them so I mainly just listen and take it all in, but I know what I stand for. One of my girlfriends is lives and breathes politics so I let her fill me in on everything else. And Scotty fills me in from time to time...we have the same beliefs. I imagine being in the field of work that you're in you would have more discussions about it...that's a good thing. I think every family should have discussions about these things. I wish my parents would have talked more openly about it...I'd probably know more if they did.

boyohboyohboy replied:
I like Karen, am strictly a republican. I agree with pro life and pro war, I do not think that gays have the right to marry, and I to wish that morals were seen more in politics.
Education is for front in my mind right now, as well as health insurance and I do have strong opinions on the imigration laws...and social security.
I hope that was said, with tact... I do try to not get into debates here.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I am with you on all those too Stacy! I think that was very tactful.

jcc64 replied: I also think Guiliani was the absolute essence of leadership and comfort on that horrible horrible day 5 yrs ago. He knew what to say, and what not to, he was right smack in the middle of all of the chaos- at great personal risk to himself. Unlike Bush, he didn't sequester himself away in some designated safe zone, and he was available and accessible almost all the time. He attended funeral after funeral, and his empathy was clearly genuine and bottomless. I truly grew to respect him during that period, having had some pretty negative feelings about him prior to that event. I'm not sure if I could vote for him for President, though- he avidly and continously supported Bush through all of his disastrous (imo) policies- and for that, I am not so sure I could ever support or trust him. It would be interesting candidacy, though. He's got a lot of skeletons and personality quirks- I think it would be fun to see him run.

My2Beauties replied:
I meant to say in that original post that I'm only somewhat of a Die Hard Democrat, I didn't mean to put Republican, I've edited it but I wrote it so long ago.... duh on my part. Anyways I feel that I vote for what is best for everyone, not just myself. I am not a welfare case, but I do believe welfare is needed for those less fortunate, I have my own insurance, but I believe that everyone should have insurance regardless of age, disability, income, race, gender ethinicity, employment status, etc...I want my children and my grandchildren to grow up and not have to breath polluted air, not have to worry about global warming...all issues that Republicans seem to just dust under the rug...when the fact is our environment is soooo important, it should be one of our main priorities. I don't believe in privatizing SS because some people no matter how educated, smart, wealthy, or what have you just DO NOT know how to invest their money...what happens if their investment is bad and they lose their retirement, what happens if that didn't work out and we have no SS for the elderly and only a few select people end up with their retirement and the rest of us are left high and dry. I'm not a good investor, I don't have the slightest clue in how to play the stock market or purchase bonds, etc...I'd be in the majority probably who suffered as an elderly person. My job doesnt' pay retirement, when you retire you're just done...no more pay for you, SS is all you have. That is all I've ever paid into, of course I want it back when it's time to get it back. They're saying there aren't enough workers to pay for our SS, well the gov't will find a way, they can spend billions upon billions of dollars on a war over in the middle East, then they can spend billions to make sure the elderly in this country and the ones who have paid taxes and paid into SS are taken care of. So I definitely don't vote just based on what would benefit me....the republicans want more tax cuts, do I think that will benefit me, well heck yeah but I don't want any part of it. I pay into social programs because we need social programs. I am in no way, shape or form for anyone who abuses the welfare system, I think they are scum and lazy, but for those who need it...yeah we need to have it. For those who need a helping hand I'm fine helping them out. I would hate to live in a society that says OK now be gone and go fend for yourself...when I've lost my job, I've become disabled, etc..I don't want to live in a place that will turn it's back on me. I admit, I can honestly see some Republican's POV's honestly. Yes less taxes would be great, means I get more on my paycheck like I said but I'm not Jane Doe with 5 kids and my husband left me with nothing and I only make $40k a year and I need assistance...I'm not that person..I'm not DH's cousin Ronnie who Thank God finally got a kidney transplant last year but they cut his medicaid, he was totally disabled, on dialysis 4 days a week for 4 hours a day, and they freaking cut his medicaid and he had no insurance for months and he had to jump through hoops to get it back...Im' sorry that isn't fair and just plain lousy. So this is why I vote democrat and why I believe it helps society as a whole. I know there are plenty of good rebuttles and I'm looking forward to hearing them. LIke I said I may not be swayed but I can look at that other side and say hey they do have a point

My2Beauties replied:
I mean no disrespect honestly I don't - this question boggles me about Republicans, how can you be sooo pro-life but so pro-war?? War kills thousand of innocent people every day??? I am pro-life (although I am pretty liberal, that is my one conservative issue, I do not believe in abortion except in the case of rape, incest or the mother's life being in danger) but I also don't believe in war so this is why I'm asking. I don't understand dems who are pro-choice but anti-war as well, so that's a question too...I'm not thrashing out at anyone, I just want to understand...I can't grasp the concept! Please no one takes offense.

1lilpeanut2love replied:
That's exactly what I DON'T understand!!!

That's why I am NOT really on either side!

my2monkeyboys replied: Just to put this out there for others to think about, why should someone pay more taxes just because they worked hard/lucked out and grew wealth? Just bc someone has a lot of money shouldn't mean that we have the right to take it from them and give it to someone else.

That's why I'm for the FairTax... people pay in based on what they buy, and the wealthy would certainly being buying much more than us middle class folks. But it would be by their decision, not by someone taking it from them.

I think freedom is what makes this country so great. Without it, we wouldn't be who we are as a people.

ETA: War is not acted out on the innocent. Yes, innocents may die at times, but that is not the focus of it. Where as abortion is just that.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I can't really answer for Stacy, but for me it's more about self-defense than anything. I'd love to live in a world without war, but when we have crazy terrorists that are threatening our country, I think we need to do what we have to do to defend ourselves. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but for me it's more about the self-defense. Also, like many others, even though I am a pretty strong republican there are some issues that I sway on a bit because I sometimes am "in the middle" without a clear strong opinion. There are too many circumstances to go along with each issue so I have a hard time deciding what my clear opinion is on some things.

cameragirl21 replied: this is where this debate can get tricky so i'm going to respond to LeaAnn and Jocelyn very carefully.
i'm a pretty typical liberal and am pro choice in any and every circumstance...IMO this is your choice to make and no one else's and certainly not some politician's.
i am not fond of the war but i do believe it's necessary as we are definitely at war with islamic radicals whether we go there or not, they're already here joyriding our airplanes and reshaping the NYC skyline. ideally i wish we could stay out of this but it's been brought to our soil so we have to fight back.
incidentally, i'm also against capital punishment...where i get a bit confused is how someone can be pro life but in favor of capital punishment. but that can start an ugly debate so i think if it comes to that then i'd rather just remain confused on that issue.

Crystalina replied: I'm a democrat and I'm pro-war. Well, I'm for "you mess with us we mess with you" but this war we have now was started for other reasons IMO. I think Little Bush was just trying to finish what Daddy Bush didn't. He did. Great. Now what about Osama?

I would also add that "I don't mean any disrespect" to anyone but there should really be noone to be offended by my opinion.

**Edited because I can't spell**

But since I'm here Jennifer (without starting a debate because I think you can handle it ) I am SOOO for capital punishment. An eye for an eye if you ask me. That would save some money. We feed these men that are on death row. Why? Get it over with. They did something to be there (although there is the rare case of someone getting off for evidence found.). We would have less theives and murders if you ask me. In other countries if you rape a woman your dicky-doo (Evans word) gets cut off, as it should, if you steal your hand gets cut off. I'm not saying we should be that extreme with theives but the rapists definately and the murders WTH not? Our criminals need to pay the price.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That's where my head starts to play tricks on me. I am pro-life, but at the same time I'd love to see justice served an eye for an eye, persay. BUT, when I voted I couldn't bring myself to do it and voted no for the DP. I can't vote for playing God. However, in a way I'd love to just get rid of scum that walk the Earth instead of letting them sit behind bars eating away our tax dollars. For me, I can't decide what I am for on that issue. I know what I feel is right, but I am only human and can't stand the evil people that roam this Earth!

ETA: when I look at these issues there are others things I think about too. I am pro-life. Innocent children aren't doing anything wrong when they are being aborted. However, when a criminal kills someone out of malice, he IS doing something wrong and should be punished. So, I don't know. I probably made myself more confused by typing this.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
I'll just say it's scriptural and won't get into it any more than that. That's a whole other debate, but that's where the foundations for my beliefs are and that's why I can be pro life, pro war and pro capital punishment all at the same time.

And I don't think you are being disrespectful at all LeaAnn.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: First I would like to respond to the question of how one is Pro-life and also Pro-war- I don't consider myself to be 'Pro' war (I don't believe we have the right to, without provication, occupy another nation). I believe that in regards to this war, our country was attacked and that we had a right-no a duty-to defend our soil,our people,and our freedom. I would never go around waving a banner of joy at the civilian lives lost in this or any other war,but I first and foremost mourn the deaths of the men and women who have died to defend my safety and the safety of everyone else who lives in our shores...We lost innocent civilian lives on Sept 11. We would have continued to do so and I am afraid we may yet see it again. The difference to me is that a soilder is payed to fight and if need be die...they choose their career-and thus their possible death by it, a soilder is able to defend himself. In fact he/she is trained to do so, a baby (embryo,fetus,whatever you would like to name him/her) did not choose their conception date,they did not decide to be placed in the womb they are in. They do not know if it is the right time for their arrival....They are simply growing-available to change the world when they enter it.
Now since I answered a question,I would also like to ask one...and I really do want to know how you quantify your answer.... Each one of us has loved the children we now hold in our arms with all of hearts since we knew they were on the way. A few of us are blessed enough now to be waiting for the arrival of another such miracle, I know that we all wonder about 'the babies' of pregnant friends-why are they babies in every sense of the word and yet others are not? Some have said that they support abortion in any and all circumstances but think that hunting is morally repugnant..When then does human life begin? We have all seen the newest addition to our PC family-clearly a baby-a child with every possiblity-when did his 'life' begin? He is not supposed to be born yet but isn't he already very much a human being? I believe the answer is a resounding yes! Yet babies of his gestational age are aborted in our country-when is it not a choice anymore and just the plain taking of a life?

cameragirl21 replied: i'm not even going to touch the when does life begin discussion but i wanted to say to Crystal--i totally respect your stance on capital punishment and the fact that i'm against it does not mean i feel the tiniest shred of sympathy for a psychopath killer. however, i'm firmly of the belief that i don't get to decide who lives and dies and neither should anyone else. i also feel that it's somewhat hypocritical...kind of like the adage--why do we kill people who kill people to teach people that killing people is wrong?
that's JMO and tbh few people i know agree with me, even my liberal friends see it your way, Crystal. i'm guess i'm further to the left than i thought.
i told my webmaster about this convo today and she asked me, "speaking specificially of domestic issues, how would you define an extreme left winger?" and for a moment i stumbled and mumbled around the issue but then it hit me and i said, "well, i guess that would be me."
and she just said, "yep."
but when it comes to foreign affairs, i do tend to lean to the right on certain issues, like the middle east.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

We don't we kill them to punish them for killing someone innocent-and so that they won't do it again!

Boo&BugsMom replied: Abbie, I think what you all said was said very well! I always enjoy your posts!

Aimee...you too! Actually, and I mean this sincerely, if you have any scripture you'd like to share with me about CP, I would really like to hear it. Feel free to PM me if you have any. When it comes to that subject that is why I have a hard time agreeing with it, but if I knew some scripture to back it up, I would feel way more better about supporting it. I just don't know any that do at this point. I suppose that should give me motivation to go look, hey!? I always base my opinions on these subjects based on scripture so it would really help me in forming a more solid opinion.

msoulz replied:
Uh oh, now we're mixing church and state - no good can come from this!!!

cameragirl21 replied: Jennie, I'm certainly no expert on scripture but speaking of capital punishment, didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek?

coasterqueen replied:
I recanted and said I'm pro-choice.

I won't answer any questions on being pro-war because we could go on forever on that.

Your post on SS...you say you only count on SS, that's all you pay into. Do you not save at all for your future? If not, I'd have to ask why? That is just as important and a way you can count on yourself, not just the government. As far as one being educated over the other, I think becoming a parent has taught me I have to educate myself on just about anything and everything and that's including investing in my future. I will admit I leave that part up to my husband for the moment as I take care of other responsibilities, but I do take charge for my own pension. I read materials left and right trying to decide what to invest in. As a Republican I believe we have to stop relying on everyone else, even for something like educating one's self on issues. Don't we teach our children to be independent? Don't we try to get them to sleep in their own beds, dress themselves, etc, trying to rely less and less on us? Well Republicans are saying, the government may be your "parent" but we have to cut the purse strings here a little and make you become independent. I think SS is an excellent way to cut those purse strings a bit. IMO I work my bum off and I think I could do a better job at investing what I put into SS a whole lot better than the government so why shouldn't I get that opportunity?

I think it was Ronald Reagan who best said it. "Government isn't the answer, it's the problem". I believe most Democrats believe the government should be the answer 100%.

ETA that I didn't like some of my wording and needed to change it

punkeemunkee'smom replied:


ITA! I do not believe that you are entitled to a welfare check everymonth with no effort on your part-clean up a roadside or reststop...(I am not talking about single moms here. I mean the fully capable men on the system because they 'can't find' a job.)

My2Beauties replied: I wanna first just add that I'm happy this debate is so civil, everyone here obviously has strong opinions on one side or the other, and it's awesome we've been able to discuss them. Thanks to everyone who answered my questions, Aimee I can totally see exactly where you are coming from and karen I can with you too. Honestly, I probably could educate myself and make way better investments than SS..BUT and you and I both know the majority of people won't, at least in my/our generation. Now future generations will learn from our mistakes possibly and make better investment decisions but I honestly don't think that our generation will do so. I've paid into SS, I want it back with the way the economy is I don't trust stocks. Yes I save for my future other than SS, I have my 401k, DH gets retirement and I get 50% of whatever he has when he retires on top of what he gets, like if he has $300k in his 401k he gets his $300k and I also get $150k just for being his sopuse (gotta love the railroad) plus he still gets retirement, they don't pay into SS, they pay into an actual IRA through the railroad themselves and through the union...it's guaranteed money when he retiers...I wish all jobs were like this actually but they aren't! My thing is is that if you think about the majority, most people won't be smart about it and in 40-50 years we'll have a nation filled with homeless elderly people...this is just my opinion.

As far as the pro-war thing, I didn't mean it as in you're pro-war like let's go over and take these people over...I just mean everyone knows by now that Bush had other motives for going nito Iraq, he found Saddam, they need to find Osama and it's done, we're looking for nuclear weapons and can't find them when here's North Korea over here telling us they have them and actually testing them it boggles my mind! Yes they attacked us and yes we needed to do what we needed to do, but isn't this thing getting a little drawn out and isn't is obvious what Bush has done? I mean it is to me, as a democrat! He's pulling the wool over our eyes. I can't respect a president, like Jeanne said, that wasn't readily available to the people of this nation on that tragic day!

As far as capital punishment is concerned, I'm on the fence. There are so many people in our justice system on death row that are innocent. I watched a special on Showtime about men who were exonerated (sp?) one of these men spent 26 years on Death Row for a murder he didn't commit because they didn't have DNA testing when he was found guilty....if we just said quit feeding him and we're tired of paying to feed and house him in prison let the jerk fry...an innocent man would be dead!! I forget the statistics, I want to go look them up now, but it was an astounding # of men and woman in prison and in the justice system especially on Death Row who were deemed innocent after further DNA testing...especially in cases if rape, 88% of those cases the victim of the rape mis-identified the person! It's sad but true and I couldn't sleep at night knowing that we just let a man fry that didn't have the proper representation and all avenues weren't completely taken to make sure this was in fact the guilty party. If someone is caught molesting a child, they get whatevery they deserve, may they rot in eternal you know what and may they suffer, I have no sympathy for them, IF they are guilty. The justice system just isnt' fair, there are more black men on death row statistically, regardless of the fact there are more black men in jail and being arrested, just statistically white males who commit the same type of crimes that have more money and better representation (attorneys)) get off without death sentences, same with latino men and other ethnicities...doesn't seem like justice to me, seems like whoever has more money gets a better deal! Which is the way I think this country is ran half the time anyways - on everything!

coasterqueen replied:
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about any one program as that can be a tricky subject. I see what you are saying though.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I know Karen I was just using that as an example...I think there are many MANY ways that spending should be cut...but that is a whole other and equally as volatile subject as this one could be.

BTW~ I do NOT blindly support Bush-I see many mistakes made and I rant at the television often when he is on....I am all for the securing of our borders over and above the rebuliding of Iraq. I think we have not made decisive strikes that would have cost many less lives but I also believe that it is easy to run things in hind sight. I still none the less respect the office of the presidency as well as the man who holds it

mom2my2cuties replied:
I totally agree with you Abbie - It's easier to see the what "should, could, would" have been done. And also - I think you are right on about respecting the president.

gr33n3y3z replied: I vote for who I think will do the best job it doent matter what party they are in I vote for the issues at hand and who is willing to turn this mess around and we all know there is a lot of mess that has to be cleaned up.

Lets just see what they can do in two years

Boo&BugsMom replied: LeaAnn, if it makes you feel any better, in WI, when the law passed for CP (I believe it passed, that was what I was told anyway), one of the stipulations was DNA evidence. So, a cirminal wont be put on death row if there is no DNA supporting the case. Just an FYI. I guess that is a good thing...they are modifying the law to meet our future capabilities.

Jennifer, Jesus did say turn the other cheek, but that is only one little sentence within a million sentences in the Bible. That is where some people get tongue tide and assume (no offense), by not finding supporting scripture because one little sentence could really mean anything if you don't STUDY it. Does that make sense?

Aimee, thanks for the website!!!:D

About Bush, I do support him, but I wont argue he was made some mistakes. He still gets my respect. I am sure he is only doing what any human could possibly do. We all make mistakes, and for me personally, I wont try to judge his mistakes because I do not know how it is to run a government and I don't know every fact of every mistake or accomplishment. Until I have been in his shoes, and I don't see that ever happening, I can't judge a person for making mistakes that anyone else could easily make. And that is just my personal take. I wouldn't expect anyone else to feel the same way.

coasterqueen replied:

LeaAnn,

If you really think the Iraqians would leave nuclear weapons sitting around fully knowing we were coming, well then...I just don't think they are that stupid. There is more to this war, I know, but I fully went into knowing we wouldn't find them. They are very smart people, I'll give them that.

My2Beauties replied:
No I know they are smart and I don't think they're leaving them sit around but I also think we have searched high and low and we can't find anything and here we have a very clear threat from North Korea and we're sitting idle and just "waiting" for them to do something it seems like, meanwhile, we're over there leaving no stone unturned and coming up with nothing. I just think energy and money is being wasted on either something that isn't there or something that may be there but we'll probably never find. Ultimately I just think Bush has other motives for being there and it's not all about defending our soil and 9-11, I think he wants control of oil among many other things. Don't ask me why it's just a vibe I get. To be honest I don't trust any politician as far as I can throw 'em, republican or democrat they all seem to lie but atleast I feel a little more comfortable with the democrats, maybe they won't lead us as astray as the republicans...I don't know! Politics are very very confusing I try to keep myself up to date but in the whole scheme of things it's always the same ol' same ol' this candidate said this this candidate did that and they all have lied and cheated to get where they are anyways...so I kind of stop caring to a point! I guess I have just learned to not trust anyone.

Edited for spelling and grammar - oy I need to go back to College English course!

coasterqueen replied:
would having control over oil be such a bad thing? Although I don't think it's right to go into another country and take control of something that isn't ours.

As a Democrat you are about helping the poor and those in need, correct? I haven't thought this completely through yet, but wouldn't having control over oil bring our gas prices down? Like I said, I haven't thought through my thoughts on this, but these are my initial ones.

My2Beauties replied:
Yes it could, but....the long and short of it is that it's not ours to begin with and secondly we need to reduce our dependence on oil period and make cars that are more friendly to the environment that get better gas mileage or that can run on synthetic fuel. It all boils down to the environment again in my eyes! I'm no saint believe me, I didn't go out and buy the Toyota Echo because it gets 50 mpg or whatever it is, I do have a compact SUV, it does get about 27 mpg highway which isn't bad for an SUV at all and is pretty standard with most other cars so I'm not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black or anything...but when the norm is that we reduce our dependence and cars are made to get better mpg and use synthetic fuel then we will live in a much much cleaner place and owning the big oil companies shouldn't matter, let them have their oil...it's in their country!

coasterqueen replied:
True, but it's all about supply and demand and Americans are demanding it It starts at home. If you want to change the environment you have to start at home. You can't expect the government to do it first and then you follow. When the government sees the people demanding (and that means actually doing it themselves too) a change there will be. People aren't actually doing what they are demanding. They are demanding a cleaner environment, yet doing all the things that aren't helping to do that. The government is not the all mighty power that can save our world on it's own, we have to help.

I just can't support the belief most democrats have about the environment when they don't do anything for it themselves. I want a cleaner environment myself, but until I can show that's what I want by doing something I don't plan to tout to the government about it either.

My2Beauties replied: I'm not going to quote again, it's getting to be too long of a quote Anyways, Karen I completely understand what you are saying, I really do. Americans say they want environmental policies to change etc...but they don't recycle, they don't stop littering, etc.. I think I do try and do most of that stuff, we do recycle, I don't litter (I mean I have before, I'm not gonna lie, but I try not to now), I take into consideration mpg before purchasing a car, I do need a larger car for room so I tried to get the best mpg I could afford with the size I wanted. Obviously I would have loved an SUV hybrid but wasn't in the budget at the time I bought my car, it may be something I think about when I buy another car (which will probably be soon because I hate my car now, whole different story ) but I also think that the government while they do need help from us they can also take a stand on certain issues and they can change their policies a bit to help the environment out, I really do believe this. It is partially the people but it's also partially the government, to me, being serious and stepping up and taking a stance and changing policies!

coasterqueen replied:
I understand your point as well LeaAnn. But like I've said in the past, it's not the President who makes the laws and rules, it's the legislature who do the most part of it. So now that Dems have control of it I don't want to hear any of you complaining when they aren't passing legislation you feel Bush should have made policy

My2Beauties replied:
Oh I know Bush doesn't make the laws....I hope democrats do what they say they are going to do and laws are passed to help protect the environment and support other causes they say they want to support... I want to see a chance. I guess we'll see!

coasterqueen replied: LeaAnn,

I hope you are right and you get to see the results you've been wanting for a long time. I'm a cynic. I think no matter what your party affiliation is, money makes the world go around and corrupts even the most honest person. I don't see some policies getting changed no matter who you are.

luvmykids replied:
I don't think Aimee is saying that the governments policies should be scripturally based, just that it is the foundation for her morals/beliefs. I don't think that is mixing church and state, judging where/how someone defines their personal beliefs is where the trouble starts IMHO

cameragirl21 replied:
ok, well i'm just going to state my complaint already--when our REPUBLICAN Congress passed the stem cell bill, both the House and the Senate Bush vetoed it!
the next day, i got an email from the mother of a girl named Annie...Annie is 20 years old and dying of ALS, she started showing symptoms at 16 and was diagnosed at 17...i spent last Christmas with Annie's family, they asked me to spend that Christmas with them because and i qotee, "it will probably be our last Christmas with Annie". the email said, "our president's decision just sealed Annie's fate, he's left her to die."
and i cried my eyes out.
so yeah, i think i have a legitimate reason to have a complaint/beef with our president.

coasterqueen replied:
Sure, I understand that. He does have veto power and uses it. I tend to try to find out WHY something was vetoed, though before placing blame on them. You don't know why it was vetoed do you? The honest reason why? I say this because dealing with legislation in our state I've come to find out sometimes things are vetoed for reasons that they really should be, even if it's a very important bill that would benefit a lot of people. Sometimes the bill was not set up well and it gets passed just because there is too much money in the back pockets of politicians and they aren't seeing the whole picture. It's hard to explain, but sometimes even the most important bills need vetoed and there are serious legitimate reasons as to why. Now I'm not trying to belittle the life of the person you are referring to or anyones for that matter. I'm just trying to say that everyone should look at the depth of the situation before judging or placing blame.

Crystalina replied:

Just my 2 cents on this (for what it's worth ). I'm not trying to sway anyone from their beliefs but I do want to say that I do believe we should have respect for the Pres. if he has respect for us. 9/11 was not his doing and he was thrust into a horrible situation shortly after becoming Pres. But where was he? He made an appearence and a lovely speech that gave us all hope, Republicans AND Democrats, that things would be taken care of and we should all unite as a country. Well, we all did but then he was gone. Him being our Pres. should have did a little bit more hands on (like Guiliani) if anything at least for the cameras. And our Vice Pres? OMG, he was totally gone. This man, Bush, was not some innocent victim that we all just decided to pick off the street and use as a scapegoat for any gripes we may have. He worked hard to get to the point of power he has. With that comes dealing with whatever comes his way. The people who voted for him (and those of us who didn't) need more then just a well dressed man and his well dressed wife living in our White House. He's there to do a job and with that job will always come critisism. He knew it would. He (and all Republicans) have to deal with it because as we know here in the USA we don't all see eye to eye which makes this a great country. But as for respecting the Pres. there has been a few things for me to lose repect for him and one is definately his reaction to 9/11. Yes, he is only human but being Pres. means sometimes to step-up and I don't mean by going after a country that had nothing to do with the situation. I'm just saying that just because he is our Pres. does not mean we have to repect his choices if they are not the choices we agree with. I'm not going to be a robot and say that I don't agree with this guy but I repect him because he's the Pres. I'm sorry, it's more then just a title to me.

cameragirl21 replied:
it was vetoed because stem cell research goes against his religious and personal beliefs.
well, letting people die when we have the technology to keep them alive goes against my religious and personal beliefs.
this btw, is nothing personal against you or your beliefs, Karen, it's just that i actually tolerated our president and his choices until that veto came up. that's just something i can't get over. i have to watch people die, pres Bush apparently doesn't or he'd not have vetoed that bill.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: First of all they did not stop the research on stem cells-there are plenty of stem cells in labs and test tubes still being studied,they stopped the harvesting of them and the procurement of them in government funded labs-although those laws too can and have been re-written state to state



There are also plenty of 'alternative' ways of obtaining stem cells with less ethical concernsOther Methods/procedures

Jennifer,Why is it Ok in your opinion to use fetal tissue and/or stem cells to futher science but it is wrong to use animals in labratory research? I don't see the alignment of rights and wrongs there...IYO is an animal is more valueable than a human? I would really like to know how you have arrived at your conclusions....

DansMom replied: Well, I almost always agree with Jeanne, we're pretty much died in the same wool, and this is no exception. Like LeeAnn, I don't really have an ethical problem with capital punishment for the worst criminals; there are cases that have sickened me so much that I would not have any difficulty pulling the lever myself, but it is a fact that the justice system we have is woefully imperfect. Innocent people will be set up by others and railroaded, witnesses guessing rather than truly remembering, and true criminals overlooked in the heat of persecution and prosecution, and some precincts are notoriously corrupt, juries quite arbitrary. It's a better system than any other I can think of, but because of these problems I can't support the death penalty. Stem cell research and gay marriage, I'm all for it. The war in Iraq: the tide of support is shifting because more and more mothers and fathers are having their children returned to them in coffins or physically mangled and psychologically destroyed. The reality of the price we're paying is hitting home. There better be a higher purpose for these losses than lining the pockets of oil tycoons and war profiteers. I'm not convinced at all that the war in Iraq has anything to do with crazy terrorists, or more to do with that issue than other places on the map that we haven't invaded. Nothing is being done in other places where tyrants who hate America rule and genocide and nuclear threats are mounting.

cameragirl21 replied: DansMom, i don't know you but from what i just read i like you already.
very well said, thanks.

jcc64 replied: Great debate, guys! Lots of good points. A few thoughts (although I have MANY):



We were not attacked by Iraq, we were attacked by a multi-national (though mainly Saudis) group of terrorists. This confusion was a deliberate campaign by the Bush admin to muddy the line between 9/11 and their desire to wage war against Saddam Hussein. It drives me nuts that they were so deceptive about something as monumental as waging a war.

And as far as the fundamental differences between Republicans and Democrats. I should begin by saying that in no way, shape, or form am I inspired by the ideas or the leadership put forth by the Democratic party in its current incarnation. I think they're all a bunch of weenies.
Having said that, I am forever scratching my head at some of the inconsistencies of the traditional platforms of the Republican party. At the top of my list is the abortion issue. I cannot reconcile how the boundless compassion and concern for the unborn does not extend much beyond birth. That is, the party that would have all of these unwanted children born is the same one that is perpetually undermining the social programs that will be inundated by all of these births. There are lots of hungry children who are already born, and I don't see any meaningful Republican initiatives to care for them. Quite the opposite, actually. f the Republicans were both pro life AND pro social programs, it would make much more sense to me.
And while I agree that we all need to be responsible for ourselves, there needs to be an acknowledgment that we are not playing on a level playing field. We do not all have access to the same quality or level of education, the same safe neighborhoods, reliable transportation, health care, etc... A lifetime on welfare is not the solution, but neither should it be every man for himself.

And way back at the beginning of this thread someone asked why should people who make it big or get lucky have to pay more taxes for their good fortune? I think it's because they can afford to- simple as that. There are many people in this country that couldn't possibly spend all of their money in this lifetime if they wiped their behinds with $20 bills all day every day. And then there are people who can't feed their kids or afford to seek medical care when they're gravely ill. I personally think the inequity is disgusting, and I see taxes as one way of correcting an inbalance. I believe in the end we all have a responsibility to care for each other.

cameragirl21 replied: Jeanne, all i can say is, you're a goddess!
well said as always.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I have to totally agree with this! It would be one thing if we could count on others to give when they have the means to, but we can't and there are many who don't because there are too many greedy people in this world. People need to help people more, and not enough do.

my2monkeyboys replied: I have a soft heart, and believe their should be some sort of system of help in this country, though I don't think it should be the one in place now. However, how can you justify taking someone's belongings and giving them away, just because you feel it is right to do so? That is stealing. It may be legalized stealing, but it is stealing just the same. ('Legal' and 'right' are not always the same thing.)

Braydensmommy replied:
yeah that

moped replied:
I am curious about this questoin as well. I have tried to stay away from this post because to be quite honest it is very touchy, but you seem to be the one to start the heated topics. Naturally I can't comment on American politics......I am Canadian. But totally off topic, it seems as though you are always trying to stir the pot, why is that?

Crystalina replied:
Well, up until now the thread seemed to be going quite well.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I was asking a question I believe Jen was too-it doesn't have to be responded to,but I still have the right to ask it. Futher more I was being sincere-I would like to know how one comes to espouse the view point Jennifer does. She is very open about her views as am I-nothing will be gained if questions can't be asked and are not answered honestly...I don't expect an answer-I usually don't get one BUt I really don't see how the questions posed in a very respectful and honest way somehow cause the thread to cease 'going quite well'

cameragirl21 replied:
thanks, Crystal. i was just going to let that one go and not respond but thanks for taking the words right out of my mouth.

my2monkeyboys replied: Ok, back to topic now...

Crystalina replied: Abbie, there is nothing wrong with the question in your post and if I would have thought that you would think I meant anything towards you then I would have deleted your quote and I apologize for not doing so. I just "assumed" that I didn't need to. Sorry, there is abosolutely nothing wrong with you asking a question or even another member wondering about the same question you were but this....



I agree.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Thank you Crystal...I think that in debates like this questions will be asked and concerns raised that not everyone will argee with but to the one asking the question it is just as valid as the next,and it may be questions that have more than one wanting answers As for this topic-Only time will tell if the election promises become realities. I really truly enjoy hearing the 'other' side to my views-to disagree is in someways to learn-I have been challanged to strengthen my views,made to ask myself why I feel the way I do by some of the most well spoken women I have ever 'met' on this board-and I am better for it I think that the mirad of topics in the thread could all be discused til Kingdom come and they all don't have to do with

jcc64 replied: I have to add that I don't think "stirring the pot" is necessarily a bad thing- providing we all behave in the respectful manner that we've all come to expect here at PC. In this thread, we've discussed a whole range of some pretty explosive subjects, and I for one think everyone was particularly well behaved this time around. I have learned alot from my conservative buddies here. Tbh, I simply do not often cross paths with people with these types of views irl, and I am desperate for a meaningful dialogue across the great ideological divide. AM talk radio, cable news, blogs, etc.. make for titilating, ratings rich media, but they haven't done much to bring us all back together again as brothers and sisters.
It starts here.

my2monkeyboys replied:
While I know we don't share many of the beliefs, what you've just said is absolute fact.

gr33n3y3z replied: [QUOTE=jenhopkins2000,Nov 9 2006, 05:44 PM] [QUOTE=punkeemunkee'smom,Nov 9 2006, 12:35 PM]
,Why is it Ok in your opinion to use fetal tissue and/or stem cells to futher science but it is wrong to use animals in labratory research? I don't see the alignment of rights and wrongs there...IYO is an animal is more valueable than a human? I would really like to know how you have arrived at your conclusions.... [/QUOTE]
I am curious about this questoin as well

bc I feel JMO here if its going to help ppl. understand all that we need to know and help with the sick why not use animals we can test or inject right?
Its not its all fun and games here what is being done Its being done to help us understand and learn.

redchief replied: Hey, you all, no fair having a knock down, drag out political debate without me!!! This has been a very good debate. You all knew I'd have to weigh in. The reason I haven't up until now has been two-fold. First, my computer wrecked on Sunday night, and I did it no better by formatting the wrong drive... more on that elsewhere. Second, this has been an extremely busy week and you all have thrown so many ideas on this thread that catching up has taken hours. For those who see this and fear the length, read on, some of my positions might even surprise those of you who think you know me. I shall quote no one, but my answers will be contained within for the most part.

I am interestingly at peace with the results of the midterm elections. With the exception of the return of our corrupt senator to Washington, I don't see this election nearly as negatively as many Republicans. Why is that? Simply this, if the GOP was to lose an election because of the war, this was much better a time than two years from now. The weak majorities gained in Congress by the Democrats will have comparatively minor effect on political business. In two years that could change, but hopefully the GOP will learn from the mistakes of the past several years and make corrections. As things stand now, Washington is basically in stalemate. Congress is held by the Dems, but have no super majority and are therefore unable to override a veto or lack of action by the White House. With the country as polarized as it is now, mostly due to disagreement over how to handle the Middle East, it will give everyone time to consider their position and watch how the Islamic fundamentalist nut bags react to what they will no doubt perceive as a huge victory over America. My guess is they will gloat and pander to the left enticing them further to allow America's guard down "in the interest of peace." It is up to all of us to decide whether to believe that or not, though historical facts can't be denied... Fundamentalist Islam is committed to toppling a free America and they don't care which party is in power. They see our two party system as a weakness to be taken advantage of. Argue with this now if you like, history has already proven what I say to be true, and the future will tell no different a tale.

I am not pro-war. The left has painted conservatives as "pro-war" in order to make us seem callous and self-righteous bullies. How soon we forget the past. How sad we forget the past. I am "pro-protect-our-country-from-those-who-would-do-us-harm-unto-our-extinction." If that means we have to go to the Middle East in an effort to correct that problem, then so be it. If that means we have to render extinct a culture that otherwise would do the same unto us, then so be it. If there be another way, be it political, economic or isolationist, then I would be in favor of investigating that or those possibilities. I am not, however, willing to allow another culture to harm my country, family and way of life simply because I don't believe in the same version of God they do.

As far as North Korea is concerned, the political situation is entirely different than that in Iraq and Afganistan. Jung Il is a megalomaniac who wants his country to be recognized as a world economic and political power despite the impossibility of it. The perception is that they are as much a present threat as Iraq was, and that is a good perception, requiring action on our part. The problem here is that while the Middle East is currently in the US's circle of influence, North Korea is not. At this time we really have no other choice but to rely upon the Chinese and the Russians to bring NK into line. To do otherwise would have negative global political consequences we can't afford right now.

On how I vote, I must admit that I don't vote what I think is best for everyone. I vote what is best for me, my family and our future. I think everyone votes what they feel will serve them best, despite claims to the contrary. I believe a country based on solid morals is good for me, and my children. I believe that so-called social justice must be tempered by our ability to afford it, and so I vote that way. I believe that social programs are necessary to the advancement of our country as both an economic and social power, so I vote to strengthen those beliefs. I also believe that there is no such thing as an entitlement, regardless of gender, creed, race or geographical location. I believe that the only thing that we're entitled to is that which we have earned, in the case of those who are able to earn. It is our responsibility as a civilized culture to care for those who are unable to care for themselves, but that doesn't extend to their parents, if they are able to earn. I believe we are required by higher mandate to care for those who need it, but I also believe that mandate comes with the responsibility to empower those who are able to care for themselves to do so. We need to care for ouselves. We need to take care of others, but not to the detriment of my own. Before anyone jumps upon me, rest assured, life is no cakewalk in my world. I work two full time jobs in order to make ends meet, and my wife also works. It is with a sense of pride that I say I am self-sufficient and although I'm not getting rich by any means, I'm not living off of anyone else either. That is my moral center and that's how I vote.

Embryonic stem cell research is not the goose that lays the golden egg. It has been proven that adult stems cells can be retrograded to the totipotential state, thereby eliminating the need for blastocyst stage embryos. My brother is involved in genetic research in his quest to cure lymphomas, and his group has moved beyond the use of stem cells. They simply did not see the answer there. That certainly doesn't mean their research can't return to that arena if their feelings change. It just illustrates that there is more to this than at first meets the eye. There is a whole political agenda at work that has at it's center the desire to advance the ability of people to produce clones (ex. spare parts, a new body, etc.). Embryonic stem cell research has been ongoing for twenty years. I challenge anyone to name a single major medical breakthrough that came from THIS LINE of research. All that being said, I am not against stem cell or any other type of useful medical research. I do not consider cloning to be useful medical research; I consider that to be a selfish desire to extend our earthly lives beyond the natural. I think as we learn more about how things work on the genetic level, our abilities to improve life will only continue to increase exponentially. I am, however, against the destruction of human beings in order to advance the self-indulgent agenda of the living. Just because we can talk and human embryos can't doesn't give us the right to disregard their humanity, nor does it give us the right to use their unvoiced existence to extend our own lives. At the center of this argument is nothing scientific. At the center of this argument is the continual erosion of human morality in favor of self-indulgence and inappropriate self-righteousness.

Having gone on about our responsibilities to care for ourselves and others, I'm not sure where I sit on the Social Security issue. I know that it doesn't work as it stands now, but I'm not certain that privatizing it is the right answer either. I'd like to see all of the viable ideas undergo trial by fire before the government makes any major moves.

I am anti-abortion and against capital punishment. Unborn children have no voice and therefore require those able to speak for them. Horrible criminals who are incarcerated are no longer capable of repeating their heinous crimes, and therefore are rendered powerless, and since they are despised by society for what they are, they have no voice, so we are responsible to protect their lives. I'm not real crazy about suicide watches for these individuals though, if that be their choice. These tenets are simply extensions of my belief that government has the responsibility to take care of those unable to take care of themselves.

I believe we have to take care of the environment for our children's sakes. At the same time I also believe that we have to remain a global economic power. This is also for the legacy we'll leave our kids. It is my firm belief that the green left and the green right exaggerate their data, thereby making neither trustworthy. So I vote very carefully, and after deep thought, in these areas, full in the knowledge that often I'm casting for the lesser of evils. Overall I believe that both the right and left bask all too easily in the self-righteous warmth of hypocrisies. Knock two times, turn clockwise thrice, throw a handful of salt over your left shoulder, and you shall be released from my brain.

Crystalina replied:

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Ed! Although we differ on a few issues-you really hit the nail on the head!